Discussion in 'Star Trek: Strange New Worlds' started by Yistaan, May 8, 2022.
...and didn't. You have to watch to the end.
There are a lot of good points but I am going to say I chafe at the implication that anyone trying to actively avoid suffering in their life is automatically "selfish/cowardly" or some other label that people can look down on and mock. Pike's a fictional character, but I've seen some very, very serious and permanent harm come to people who get labeled selfish just because they are trying to better their circumstances (thus shaming them to just accept horrific situations that end up damaging their lives permanently) so I certainly hope the ease I'm seeing that label thrown around in regards to Pike trying to prevent such a fate in fiction does not extend to real people said commenters know in real life.
Goes against who Pike is the argument most have presented.
And I admit that is a fair point.
Suffering is a fact of life. To try and avoid it at all costs doesn't always lead to the best life.
I'm not saying Pike should embrace suffering, but rather he is in the process of recognizing who he is as a person, and his own personal values that go along with it to make him who he is. For him, Starfleet and it's mission are tied quite closely to his personal values, including duty, loyalty and self-sacrifice. Pike is going to have to make peace with the idea that embracing himself fully means taking on that risk.
As far as real life, well, the compassion of Trek fans is not well known. I would hope that people in real life are treated far better.
I brought up it being cowardly, but only in the sense that Pike fleeing would leave someone else in the position he was in, and that knowingly putting someone else in harm’s way to protect oneself is, IMHO, a cowardly act.
I wouldn’t call someone seeking treatment for an illness a coward, because they’re not. But I would call someone who uses someone to else as a human shield cowardly, which is the closest thing to Pike’s situation were he to try to escape his fate, as I see it.
The ironic thing is that I tried to imagine the Robert April we just saw this week repeating this post to Pike verbatim (calling him a coward etc.) if Pike asked to resign after telling April everything that happened on Boreth. And I just can't see him doing it. It's Pike's choice if he wants to stay, or not. By getting on a pedestal and morally shaming people who make choices, about their own body and health, that we may not agree with, we're actually taking that choice away from them. Which represents everything that Starfleet isn't about.
How can people claim to offer freedom to people about what they can do with their own body if they're just going to be shamed to hell afterwards? Pike being labeled a coward about a choice he decides to make for his own body doesn't seem very different from certain groups who try to push moral/religious views into laws about what people can or can't decide is best for their body.
April could order Pike to stay but he knows too little about the situation to know if that's the best thing even if told everything. It's not like ordering someone to fix a dangerous warp core when you know that's the only way out of a current situation.
I just explained the context in which I meant cowardly, which doesn’t apply to any of what you wrote at all.
You are the only person talking about being ordered by anyone, no one else has entertained the idea of, or advocated for, Robert April or anyone from Starfleet ordering Pike to accept his fate. That’s not what any of what I’ve written is about.
And again, seeking treatment for an illness is not something I consider cowardly, neither is having bodily autonomy, but Pike trying to avoid something he believes is fated is the same as pushing someone else in the path of a bullet to protect one’s self to me, and nothing at all like controlling anyone’s bodily autonomy with laws, because it’s entirely about Pike’s personal conviction, and not any rules, orders, laws or institutions.
This goes to Pike's character as presented in Trek:
2:53 is the relevant point.
Thus far, I haven't seen anyone order Pike to do so, but to watch him say that to not keep living his life according to his values and his sense of what makes him himself because he fears the outcome is inconsistent with the character as portrayed.
I would not shame Pike but I don't imagine he would enjoy his life living it in a manner inconsistent with his vaules.
Except in the episode itself Pike relates to Spock that he knows exactly when including the exact date) where and how the incident will occur. He experienced every excruciating detail in the vision he had.
That is true, but I wish that part written in a different way while keeping his choice.
1- His memory could be erased after making the choice.
2- He could be shown just the wheelchair part, without showing when and how this happened.
I like the second one better, because he would dread each day and each dangerous situation. As things stand now, Pike can take unlimited risks, as long as he does not endanger anyone else.
He's the captain of a ship. There aren't many risks he can take without endangering anyone else.
Anyway, a story is not a roleplaying game with dice. Character's not gonna live his life basing his behavior on having some kind of invulnerability rating.
Giving Pike that vision is one of the cleverest things the writers could have done to set his story and his character apart from all the other Trek captains, and in a positive way.
So...how many episodes until some writer decides that Spock develops his Kobayashi Maru test for the Academy based upon his observations and experiences with Pike?
Which is something they really should have left out. Some doubt in Pike's mind about the when and can he choose a different route would've been better for the story.
I don't think so.
I think there's something interesting with that. He says he is grappling with the possibility that his knowledge of the future will affect his decision making. But I wonder if the knowledge of what will happen to him a decade from now is making him re-evaluate his life.
If I knew I only had 10 years left, I think I'd want to figure out a way to spend that 10 years focusing on loved ones/family or at least trying to live a life not so tied to duty and obligation.
Despite all the talk here that Pike leaving Starfleet would be against his character, the thing is Pike's still waffling as shown by him ignoring the Admiral's calls. His anxiety's leaking out in his talks with first contact aliens, even going so far as to allude to the Boreth incident even though it's not really related to first contact other than him hamfisting it into the talk.
There can be tons of comments about how Pike leaving Starfleet is out of his character or cowardly or whatever, but if he's not up to following through on this decision he supposedly made to accept the wheelchair (as shown in this very episode) then he should just make another one because otherwise his internal conflict may be endangering other people around him.
Despite the rumors that Pike had a wife, the lady he was seen with seems just like a girlfriend. Also in Starfleet. Pike's entire social life seems wrapped up in his job. Most of us aren't like that. Pike may not have any loved ones/family outside of starfleet to focus on.
Which would be a source of conflict and...
Maybe the show will explore exactly that.
They're definitely not married unless one or the other of them decided to keep their maiden name. They called each other by their last names in the episode.
I think 'definitely' is a stretch considering DIS and SNW have thrown out the 1965 dialogue wherein Pike is uncomfortable serving with women and other such out-of-date social trends. It is technically plausible that addressing each other by surname is a subcultural or personal quirk in today's writing.
The relationship doesn't read as two people whose lives are entwined by any commitment that it makes sense to label "marriage."
"Look me up when you get back, I may still be here," suggests something more occaaional.
If you want to argue, you can suggest ways in which this can be construed as consistent with some definition of marriage, but you're reaching for something that's not in evidence.
I hope they have Batel back on the show for some reason other than to fridge her.
Separate names with a comma.