Which is more important individual rights or the need to protect soceity as a whole? One of a governements primary role is to protect it's citizens thats why we have military forces and sign treaties. A treaty tries to balance the needs of both parties unfortuantly some people might be negatively impacted by it. Does that mean if 99.9% of people befit from the treaty whilst .1% are negatively impacted by it the treaty shouldn't be signed?
Why does the Federation make such bad treaties?
- Thread starter The Overlord
- Start date
exactly. Trying to protect a tiny minority at the expense of a much larger society on the whole on an issue like this is impractical and stupid.
the Maquis' "cause" was b.s. They were a small number of colonists and Starfleet was going to resettle them for free elsewhere within the vast territory of the Federation.
The Maquis decided to be spoiled children about it and decided their property rights on a few planets trumped the UFP's interest in peace.
Were the Jews part of an official government who offered to resettle them for free?
It wasn't like the DMZ worlds were some ancient hallowed ground, most of the people there were the same ones who settled them in the first place. And they knew all along there were contested worlds.
It wasn't like the DMZ worlds were some ancient hallowed ground, most of the people there were the same ones who settled them in the first place. And they knew all along there were contested worlds.
NO, but I do draw the similarity when their property were illegally seize and having their citizenship being taken away. And those Indians were there for a long time...even before the Federation was created. Let's say if the planet was inhabited by 7 billion inhabitant...both humans and other aliens. Would that be wrong? It's wrong to let the government get away with stuff like this and nobody seems to be bothered by it. No wonder the Romulans never liked the Federation.
One more thing should be noted. We know those worlds were contested even before they were colonized (and the colonists were warned about that). Now, seeing how the Cardies are the bad guys, it's natural to think their claim to those worlds wasn't legitimate. But what if it actually was? What if the Federation really encroached on their territory by settling those worlds? And was just recognizing their claim and returning what was rightfully Cardassian? (Similar to the Israel/Palestine example you gave.)
It's still better than all-out war.
It could be said that the actions of the Maquis (who at one point stopped just defending themselves and started attacking as well) are part of what drove the Cardassians to seek the alliance with the Dominion.
Now, I do think the Federation has it's share of the blame. But it's because they allowed the colonists to settle in a contested space in the first place. And because they didn't do (or at least we haven't seen them do it) more to ensure that the Cardassians were following the treaty.
you're arguing against strawmen here, and you don't seem to understand the issues involved or how to use historical analogies.
the UFP wasn't trying to strip the colonists of their citizenship, or send them to prison camps, or steal their land, or any other of the nonsense you've been pulling out of your butt.
the UFP was merely asking the colonists to relocate to other parts of the Federation so they could conclude a peace treaty with the Cardassians.
Well in the case of the indians as seen in Jorneys end(which took place 2270), didn't they settle on that planet some twenty years prior to the DMZ being created. i.e circa 2250. We know that the Setlik III massacre was around 2347. So it appears they settled on a planet that at that point in time was under Federation control.
And has been mentioned previously in todays world, Governments have the means to relocate you should they need the land you reside on. So it is possible that the Federation has similar laws.
And has been mentioned previously in todays world, Governments have the means to relocate you should they need the land you reside on. So it is possible that the Federation has similar laws.
I think its safe to the assume the Federation wasn't tormenting the cardassian colonists like the Cardassian government was towards the Federation colonists, whch makes this treaty even more unfair and one sided.
The Cardies violated it in "The Maquis", but then the Feds knew what they were up to and stopped them but the Maquis themselves didn't stop. We never found out what happened to the armed Cardassian colonists, so for all we know the Maquis became the only aggressors in the DMZ attacking unarmed Cardies.[/QUOTE]
And why didn't the federation ever threaten to pull out the treaty during those episodes, considering what a major violation that was? The Cardassians violated the treaty and the federation didn't even threaten diplomatic consequences from this.
Overwhelming evidence suggests they are, you mentioned one line of dialogue from one episode, I mentioned another line of dialogue from another episode, major plot points from DS9 and TNG that revolve around the Maquis being Federation citizens. Heck the Maquis were planning on declaring independence from the Federation, that clearly cannot happen if they were not part of the Federation.
But the Feds were still the ones who sent that team, the Feds were the overt aggressors there looking for weapons that didn't exist. It was a trap, but the Feds fell into it and came off looking bad because of it. WE know the truth, but the Feds came off looking the bad guy in that situation.[/QUOTE]
Entrapment is not a good faith measure and the Federation has circumstantial evidence that was entrapment on the part of the central Command.
If a police officer uses entrapment to convince someone to commit a crime, the charges are thrown out. Same deal here, its a bad faith action and the Federation council knows this and yet they took no real action.
Except the Cardassians were still planning military strikes against the federation, so it didn't achieve that aim either. The Cardassians violated this treaty all the time, so having them torment federation colonists was just the tip of the ice berg.
And sacrificing individual liberty for the good of the state is dangerous. Remember after 9-11 when some said it was "unpatriotic" to criticizes the President and the government used the Patriot Act to increase surveillance power , etc. That;s what this attitude can lead, justifying abuses of power.
Is it? The war happened anyway and was far worse. The treaties with the Cardassians were like treaties with Nazi Germany, the other side is going to be the aggressor and the treaty is just an excuse to get breathing room for the next offensive, not a serious attempt at peace.
Except the Federation's weak treaty and wiliness to defend it, made the Federation seem like pushovers, which was why the Romulans, Cardassians and any other beliegrent power in the area felt like they act like an aggressor towards the federaation, because there were no consequences to acting like that. Despite the fact the UFP helped th Cardies during the Klingon Cardassian war, the Cardassians had no problem with declaring war on them, because the federation made itself appear as weak and confused sheep, who roll over the time, that doesn't instill gratiude in an enemy, it instills entitlement, arrogance and makes the other side think that you are easy pickings.
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Resettlement happens all the time, and even in the most private property loving areas, if the state wants to obtain property, they will, just that in some areas they have to pay for the property in question.
The Federation is a BIG place, and the federation wasn't willing to go to all out war over a couple of newly developed settlements when you had other boarder conflicts, Romulus making noise for the first time in decades, and other threats. The federation was hoping for some sort of romulan treaty, where both sides generally respected the border, but alas, the cardassians where rooting about for more. And they paid heavily for that mistake.
The Federation is a BIG place, and the federation wasn't willing to go to all out war over a couple of newly developed settlements when you had other boarder conflicts, Romulus making noise for the first time in decades, and other threats. The federation was hoping for some sort of romulan treaty, where both sides generally respected the border, but alas, the cardassians where rooting about for more. And they paid heavily for that mistake.
Got it in one.
The Dominion War treaty is the worst one yet. Why the holy frak the Feddies think the Dominion won't break it (eventually, could take centuries, the Founders think long term) is beyond me. The speech they made at the signing treaty was incredibly delusional, like the whole thing was a misunderstanding?
That's okay, the Dominion loves naive neighbors.
They're back in the Gamma Quadrant, which is enough for the Alpha Quad folks. After all, they have Ben and the Prophets on their side meaning the wormhole is effectively closed to any Dominion armadas coming through.
Which means the Female Changlings speech when she said "We'll make you fight to the death, so that our next invasion will kill you all" was a hollow threat as the Prophets wouldn't let it happen.
Which means the Female Changlings speech when she said "We'll make you fight to the death, so that our next invasion will kill you all" was a hollow threat as the Prophets wouldn't let it happen.
Considering that at least some of the colonists were warned about the situation before they settled on these planets, why did they do it anyway?
I mean right on a disputed border with a regime known for massacring civilians?
That's too close for comfort.
The colonists may have to take some of the blame.
That's one for the history books-don't ever swap border territories with people living in them-there's gonna be trouble.
The Feds seem to be harsher on their own than their actual enemies.
They were aggressive in trying to stop the Maquis, but the Dominion war treaty?
The Breen can just return to their space and promise never to make war with the Federation, ok, you may go ..
I mean right on a disputed border with a regime known for massacring civilians?
That's too close for comfort.
The colonists may have to take some of the blame.
That's one for the history books-don't ever swap border territories with people living in them-there's gonna be trouble.
The Feds seem to be harsher on their own than their actual enemies.
They were aggressive in trying to stop the Maquis, but the Dominion war treaty?
The Breen can just return to their space and promise never to make war with the Federation, ok, you may go ..
