Why does ENT hate Vulcans so much?

[Captain Atkin]

Many Vulcans came across as jerks in TOS, TNG, DS9, etc. Spock is universally loved by fans, and I think when people see Vulcans not acting like Spock, they feel it isn't right. People seem to forget that many Vulcans were mean to Spock. I thought Enterprise handled them quite well.

 

[Farscape One]

Why did Archer go along with Phlox’s understanding of evolution in the first place? Was he being open minded of evolution occurring differently on other worlds, or was he just as ignorant about the theory overall? Since he could have corrected Phlox right there, and I’d imagine that Earth education is much better in the 22nd century compared to now.

Also, I’d like to add that its just interesting in light of how Archer reacted in “Observer Effect” a few years later when it came to the Organians initially withholding a cure for a couple of members of his crew.

Regarding "OBSERVER EFFECT"...

That scenario was one created by the Organians. It was basically a big lab test. Big difference in circumstances.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Regarding "OBSERVER EFFECT"...

That scenario was one created by the Organians. It was basically a big lab test. Big difference in circumstances.

But when he sees his crewmates die before he first talks to the Organians, does Archer know that he’s being tested?

He was put in a similar situation to the Valakians. Only instead of a cure/knowledge of the cure being withheld by Archer, its knowledge of the silicon virus that infects his crew that is withheld from Archer. The tables have turned, essentially.

And then unlike Archer, where there is no prime directive to follow in regards to interference, the Organians defy their protocols regarding interference and cures Hoshi and Trip and bring them back to life.

The Organians - if they had peered in Archer's memories and learned if the situation with the Valakians - could have thown that back at him and Phlox after being told that they lacked empathy and compassion, but did not.

 

[Farscape One]

It's one thing to not interfere in what was a naturally occuring disease. It's completely different when it's a created disease by other beings.

Put it this way... if you actually created the problem, aren't you responsible for its resolution?

 

[dupersuper]

It's one thing to not interfere in what was a naturally occuring disease. It's completely different when it's a created disease by other beings.

Put it this way... if you actually created the problem, aren't you responsible for its resolution?

So if you don't create the disease afflicting the people you've already made contact with and who are pleading for your help, you can wash your hands of the whole thing?

Other episodes have come close, but this is the only one that completely ruined a character for me. Any stories featuring the character after this are about at best a horrible doctor who should never be allowed to practice medicine again and at worst a genocidal mad scientist.

 

[Farscape One]

They did help them with medicines that will alleviate things. And why can't it be possible that evolution on other worlds happens differently than on ours?

The whole point of science fiction is to posit different ideas.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

Uh, hello? Remember the OP about Vulcans?

You all know a little tangent is fine with me, but you have forgotten all about Vulcans and dragged this way off into "Dear Doctor," and just NO. If you want to fight about that episode, start your own thread, please. NOT HERE.

That goes for "Observer Effect" too, since you're only using that episode to argue about "Dear Doctor."

VULCANS.

 

[dupersuper]

D'oh! Post deleted per mod ruling.

 

[FederationHistorian]

All the past discussion is still relevant to how the Vulcans are characterized.

Archer is put in the superior alien position for the first time when he encounters the Valakians and see things from the Vulcans point of view; he later revisits that superior alien position again in “Marauders” – this time as a defender - and in “The Communicator”. And then by “Observer Effect”, he’s put in the inferior alien that he did not like under the Vulcans once more. He was the inferior alien in “Cogenitor” as well, but in that situation, he was trying to treat the Vissians as equal partners and be as diplomatic as possible to better Earth’s standing.

Sending a probe down - as the Vulcans would have likely preferred - is a lot less messy than going on an away mission. Since going about it the way Archer did leads to the philosophical debates seen in “Dear Doctor” and other episodes. Vulcans, despite being philosophically minded, actually want to avoid those philosophical debates and generally be emotionally distant to pre-warp civilizations. Even when they act overly emotional stubborn jerks towards humans, they still have a point regarding the prime directive and other protocols they have in place.

I don’t know if that’s bad characterization of the Vulcans at all. If anything, its highlighting how their wisdom and debates they’ve had with similar experiences are generally ignored. And that Archer may in fact have an inferiority complex.

There just needed to be examples in Vulcan history where they too had messed up like in “Dear Doctor”, “The Communicator” “Cogenitor” or even “Damage” that needed to be shown onscreen. Examples that inform and build their philosophy. Vulcans tends to be very secretive about that sort of stuff.

 

[Takeru]

VULCANS.

Yes, sir!

I really had no problem with how Enterprise portrayed Vulcans, they were a bit arrogant and looked down on humanity but of course humanity proved them right again and again with Archer screwing up. Dear Doctor is just one of many examples of Archer being a complete moron who has no idea what he's doing while bumbles his way through the quadrant.

The one time I didn't like the Vulcans on Enterprise was when season 4 came along (aka the worst season) and did its unnecessary "fix the Vulcans" arc because apparently when Vulcans don't act like half human Spock they are somehow wrong.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

As others have said, the way Vulcans were portrayed on Enterprise is more of a back to basics approach after the movies revised them into space-monks.

The Vulcans of Amok Time are duplicitous, at times bloodthirsty, insular and hidebound by ancient tradition. They aren't nice people. Heck, you can throw a dart at a list of TOS episodes and I'm sure you'll find an example in any given entry of Spock at least being snarky.

All the past discussion is still relevant to how the Vulcans are characterized.

No, it wasn't and all have been told in no uncertain terms to wind the "Dear Doctor" talk in and yet you're still doing it.

 

[Ron M]

There just needed to be examples in Vulcan history where they too had messed up like in “Dear Doctor”, “The Communicator” “Cogenitor” or even “Damage” that needed to be shown onscreen. Examples that inform and build their philosophy. Vulcans tends to be very secretive about that sort of stuff.

That could have been interesting. I wonder: did the Vulcans themselves need to be mentored by some other superior alien species right after they first achieved warp?

I like the scene in VOY: "Flashback" where Tuvok complains to Valtane about how humans want everyone in the galaxy to be just like them. He's not really wrong--and Spock himself sometimes had the same complaint--though Tuvok told Janeway he later came to appreciate humans. That seems to be the Vulcan/Human relationship in microcosm: in Enterprise and TOS, Vulcans and Humans mostly just tolerate each other, with the Spock/Kirk friendship being a rare exception; but by TNG, they've come to more of a mutual respect (though DS9 showed there were still plenty of issues). The conversation between Data and McCoy in TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" backs up that idea: the 137-year-old McCoy says he always found Vulcans "annoying," an attitude the much-younger Data finds puzzling.

 

[Kor]

The only aspect of ENT's depiction of Vulcans that I found problematic was the initial general ignorance of mind melding, which was then retconned to something that a lot of Vulcans apparently knew about but publicly denounced as a deviant practice even though many were secretly able to do it, and which was retconned again into something that would be accepted by all Vulcans within one of their generations, practically overnight in terms of their lifespans.

Kor

 

[Christopher]

which was retconned again into something that would be accepted by all Vulcans within one of their generations, practically overnight in terms of their lifespans.

I don't find that implausible at all, given that society has made similar turnarounds in my lifetime on things like gay rights and the acceptability of smoking in public.

 

[Mutai Sho-Rin]

I 100% disagree with the OP’s premise. ENT did a fantastic job in four seasons of showing evolving sensibilities of both Humans and Vulcans leading to the partnership we saw in TOS. Archer and T’Pol were the point of the spear for that change.

 

[Summer Solstice]

That could have been interesting. I wonder: did the Vulcans themselves need to be mentored by some other superior alien species right after they first achieved warp?

I like the scene in VOY: "Flashback" where Tuvok complains to Valtane about how humans want everyone in the galaxy to be just like them. He's not really wrong--and Spock himself sometimes had the same complaint--though Tuvok told Janeway he later came to appreciate humans. That seems to be the Vulcan/Human relationship in microcosm: in Enterprise and TOS, Vulcans and Humans mostly just tolerate each other, with the Spock/Kirk friendship being a rare exception; but by TNG, they've come to more of a mutual respect (though DS9 showed there were still plenty of issues). The conversation between Data and McCoy in TNG: "Encounter at Farpoint" backs up that idea: the 137-year-old McCoy says he always found Vulcans "annoying," an attitude the much-younger Data finds puzzling.

Sounds like a fun idea for a miniseries!

I think the Vulcans wanted to mentor humans in a way that Vulcans would appreciate without really getting that we are very different to them. I think the Vulcans may also have been a little bit afraid of humans' technology progressing very quickly even if they didn't want to admit it to themselves.

 

[Sci]

The entire concept of the Vulcans as a "superior" species is a fundamentally imperialistic, paternalist idea. It's false on its face, and it's the sort of logic that imperial cultures in real life use to justify their acts of colonialism and exploitation against weaker cultures.

ENT doesn't hate Vulcans; ENT hates Vulcan paternalism and Vulcan's colonial relationship with Earth, Coridan, and other worlds. Vulcans were not superior to Humans or Andorians, and Humans, for that matter, were not superior to the Valakians.

 

[Ron M]

Fair enough; "superior" was a poor word choice on my part, and at best not very specific. I guess the important distinctions for this discussion are "warp-capable" or "more experienced in interstellar relations" (the latter being a direct consequence of the former). Though I suppose it does matter whether the Vulcans believe that these two characteristics automatically make them "superior" in all other ways too.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

All the past discussion is still relevant to how the Vulcans are characterized.

Is that so? Arguing like playground children over Phlox's grasp of evolution is relevant to the show's alleged hatred of Vulcans? Archer's moral dilemma when Phlox develops a cure for the Valakians, there's hatred of Vulcans in there somewhere? Archer being inferior to the Organians is related to Vulcan hate? I'm really squinting, but I can't see it.

Archer is put in the superior alien position for the first time when he encounters the Valakians and see things from the Vulcans point of view; he later revisits that superior alien position again in “Marauders” – this time as a defender - and in “The Communicator”. And then by “Observer Effect”, he’s put in the inferior alien that he did not like under the Vulcans once more. He was the inferior alien in “Cogenitor” as well, but in that situation, he was trying to treat the Vissians as equal partners and be as diplomatic as possible to better Earth’s standing.

Sending a probe down - as the Vulcans would have likely preferred - is a lot less messy than going on an away mission. Since going about it the way Archer did leads to the philosophical debates seen in “Dear Doctor” and other episodes. Vulcans, despite being philosophically minded, actually want to avoid those philosophical debates and generally be emotionally distant to pre-warp civilizations. Even when they act overly emotional stubborn jerks towards humans, they still have a point regarding the prime directive and other protocols they have in place.

What I do see is that you did some hand-waving and said "Vulcans" and then did EXACTLY what I told you not to do, for two long paragraphs, which was to keep hating on Archer in "Dear Doctor" and "Observer Effect," when the topic is the way the show treated Vulcans.

I really had no problem with how Enterprise portrayed Vulcans, they were a bit arrogant and looked down on humanity but of course humanity proved them right again and again with Archer screwing up. Dear Doctor is just one of many examples of Archer being a complete moron who has no idea what he's doing while bumbles his way through the quadrant.

And you bringing up "Dear Doctor" again seems to be way more about Archer hate, not Vulcan hate. Heyyyy, I'm sensing a pattern here.

I don't care that you both hate Archer. You are in good company. Start an Archer hate thread, it's bound to be busy. But I asked you not to bring up "Dear Doctor," and you both did anyway, with hardly any connection to the OP. Nobody else had a problem with my caution -- just you two.

Threading the needle to try to get away with a clear request by the moderator is not an accomplishment. You want warnings? I got plenty of 'em. But this is a stupid hill to die on.

You both are on notice. Please don't try this again.

Back to the topic, folks. Thanks.

 

[Takeru]

And you bringing up "Dear Doctor" again seems to be way more about Archer hate, not Vulcan hate. Heyyyy, I'm sensing a pattern here.

I don't care that you both hate Archer. You are in good company. Start an Archer hate thread, it's bound to be busy. But I asked you not to bring up "Dear Doctor," and you both did anyway, with hardly any connection to the OP. Nobody else had a problem with my caution -- just you two.

Threading the needle to try to get away with a clear request by the moderator is not an accomplishment. You want warnings? I got plenty of 'em. But this is a stupid hill to die on.

You're right, I'm sorry. I thought bringing it up shortly in a (slightly) different context wouldn't hurt but it obviously went against what you said. Won't happen again.

That said, I like the Enterprise Vulcans a lot and T'Pol is my favorite character from the show, the writers did a really a good job with them. They are almost antagonistic allies and the dynamic between humans and Vulcans the show developed was very interesting.