I was also always under the impression that Chang respected and admired Kirk, but as someone who is clearly filled with hatred toward the Federation (and with Kirk's background against the Klingons, having been declared Public Enemy #1 in TVH), he'd like nothing better than to be instrumental to his death as well. TUC is pretty sloppy throughout, honestly. The issues you bring up above are clearly slop. The Enterprise not having sensor records that show a torpedo being launched from out of thin air at Kronos One is slop. The Enterprise crew not being able to use internal sensors and tricorders to VERY quickly locate a foreign substance like Klingon blood is slop. The fact that there are no 23rd century forensics that could tell that the Enterprise didn't launch torpedoes is slop. The idea that Chief-of-Staff and Bird of Prey commander General Chang would also be the head prosecutor in a state trial concerning the murder of the Klingon Chancellor is absolutely ridiculous. The whole concept of an explosion on a Klingon moon reaching the Excelsior, in Federation Space, with a higly dangerous "subspace shockwave" is insane. I think TUC gets a pass that, quite frankly, I'm not sure it deserves. Although I resisted reading the novels before the release of the films, I do agree that the novels for TFF and TUC improve on both of those films. The TFF novel gives tremendous back story to Sybok and the concept of Sha Ka Ree, as well as to closing some of the plotholes, etc. The TUC novel does a great job creating some backstory that even further justifies the tensions that exist between the two powers at the time, and even why Kirk personally has so much hatred (beyond just David's death in TSFS). I love TMP. My top 3 are TWOK, TMP, TSFS. I don't put TFF at the bottom though. It's actually above TUC and TVH in my mind (which I know is a rare opinion). INS is really the bottom of the barrel. It's the only Trek film in the entire franchise that I don't like. I agree that NEM is unfairly maligned. I liked it from the moment I saw it, and it's probably still my most re-watched TNG film.
This film was made in a real hurry. Delays and cancellations and then "do it by the 20th anniversary!" This script feels like a "once through the typewriter" draft and Nicky Meyer making it his seafaring adventure more nautical than TOWK was. He dumbed down the characters and the technology to suit his story. If TFF was actually well received and a box office smash, this movie wouldn't have been regarded as highly, IMO.
Yeah, a lot of that make up the reasons I can't rank TUC as a top movie. I like some of the investigation work (we get to see parts of the ship we don't often see) and the final battle scene is pretty well done. The overall story is fine, though a bit dated now since it was an allegory about the end of the Cold War and the fall of the Soviet Union. It doesn't relate as well today. But it's when you get beyond the basic story that things start to fall apart. The whole looking for a translation in books was just ridiculous. I mean, come on. Worse the cast even brought up how ridiculous that was and Meyer just didn't care. I know he's a bit old school, adding switches where there were buttons on the bridge for instance. Some of that I can forgive. But books? Come on. Some of what you mentioned Star Trek can be guilty of in other movies and episodes as well. Like the shockwave extending as far as it did. Some things I can sort of let go to set up or move the story along. But some of the other forensic stuff doesn't stand up even to light scrutiny. The torpedo thing was a thorn in my side as well. Seriously, no one knows where it came from? I mean, they can determine that kind of information even today. I can forgive that more since the Klingon Empire is an alien society. In the Federation that would be a definite conflict of interest and would never happen. But in the Empire their judicial system is probably far different, and I suspect you're guilty until you are proven innocent anyway in their society. That part didn't bother me as much, though it seems odd that Chang would be head prosecutor as well, considering he's probably, you know, busy with his other duties. I thought Insurrection was ok. If they ever fixed the effects from TFF I would switch it with Insurrection. Yes, the effects are so bad it actually drags the whole film down for me. Insurrection at least looks competent. And I always say it has some of my favorite cinematography work of the movie series. There are some beautiful shots on the planet. If Insurrection were an episode of TNG it'd probably be middle of the road. Not bad, not great. I think they were trying to do another TVH after Generations and First Contact, something more light-hearted with a bit more humor. But it just fell flat. And, well, there was a major conflict going on at the time with the Dominion War. Seems kind of odd the flagship of the Federation is not involved with that (I realize that was more DS9s thing, but still, it was a major war with the future of the entire quadrant at stake, you'd think the Enterprise would be involved in that somehow in the film). I found myself disappointed with Insurrection when I left the theater. During the entire movie I just kept thinking...but there is a major war going on. Why aren't they more worried about that. The fate of the entire quadrant is at stake and sorry if it sounds callous, but they are worried about 600 people. The lives of billions are at stake. (Not to mention the Enterprise was on it's was to an archaeological dig--so what there's a major war going on, it's going to be the rainy season soon so we need to get started on the dig). I always thought they could have found a way to incorporate the war into the movie in such a way that didn't require you to be a DS9 fan. But barely a mention...just a throwaway line at the beginning...and perhaps Picard's statement to Anij at the end about not abandoning the Federation to those who would destroy it (or something to that effect). Partly he probably meant those in Starfleet who were behind the whole Ba'ku relocation, but I always thought he was also referencing the ongoing conflict.
I can see the "alien justice system" angle here...but it's still insane given your last sentence. If you think about the fact that this guy is the Chief-of-Staff to a brand new Chancellor, whose father was just assassinated and whose nation is on the brink of war following a catastrophic explosion of their home planet's moon, you'd think he would have neither the time nor the inclination to be dicking around playing Perry Mason in a show trial. I think they were right to try for the "TVH angle" here as well, but it failed miserably. The TNG cast didn't have the charm that the TOS cast had in the realm of humor to pull off what was written on the page. Also, as you noted, the story just fell flat. Trek movies need to be big and bold. INS was less interesting, remarkable, or memorable than 75% of the television shows that cost 1/60th the budget to produce. I understand why they stayed away from the Dominion War (and I agree with that choice), but knowing the war was at the forefront of Starfleet concerns given what DS9 was depicting....it made a weak and tepid story seem even less important and silly. I totally agree that it's a great looking film, though. Frakes did a magnificent job of choosing beautiful locations and setting up great shots for the cinematographer. I think the digital FX were a little crappy in spots, but they still look better than TFF. I actually think INS's visual effects are the second-worse in the whole series though. The CGI for the space stuff just wasn't mature enough yet to be convincing.
My guess is since he was part of the conspiracy he wanted to prosecute Kirk himself to make sure everything went according to plan. He was mystified when the judge commuted the death sentence. He obviously thought Kirk would be executed and be out of his hair (well, what hair he had ). I just thought the story should have tied into the war somehow, even if it was indirectly. They could have been on a secret mission that would benefit the Federation somehow. I didn't really expect a war movie. Something self-contained enough that you didn't really need to know anything about DS9, but if you did it would still make sense. Though I would have loved to have seen maybe a teaser sequence with the Enterprise battling a Jem'hadar ship. We never got to see a Sovereign class vessel go up against the Dominion and I wish they found a way to include that, even if just for a few minutes. Then they get their orders from Starfleet that tie into the rest of the film and we move on (sort of like how many of the James Bond movies had a teaser at the beginning that didn't always tie directly to the film itself). I just remember thinking how silly it was that they were worried about the Ba'ku...and they were originally being sent on an archaeological expedition, when there was a major war going on. It seemed ridiculous on the surface. Yeah, agree. Insurrection is definitely 2nd worse in the special effects department of the other 12 films, though there is a huge gap between Insurrection and TFF. Insurrection's effects won't awe you or blow you away, but they are at least average and appear competently done. I hate to knock a film for special effects but with TFF they really are so bad that they just drag it down. It's a shame. I really wish Paramount would rectify that--and I don't think they'd need to spend lots of money to do it. If the other movies had shoddy effects maybe it wouldn't stand out so bad none of the other movies have such bad effects.
The idea of a Dominion War teaser, and that the Enterprise mission to the Ba'ku homeworld was somehow linked to the war are great ideas of how they could have integrated into the larger story without just being outright silly, which is how it all turned out.
Really that's all I was looking for. Something tied to the Dominion War but not necessarily being about the war. In general I think a light-hearted film like TVH works after TWOK-TSFS because it's a much needed breather. It's like horror movies where after a scare they sometimes will throw in a little comic relief. It's just in Insurrection's case the timing was all wrong. You have probably the most significant war in the Federation's history up to that point going on at the time and having a light-hearted film at that point in time just didn't make sense (though the film could still have little bits of that thrown in). Honestly, the time for something akin to TVH would probably have been the next movie, after the war was over and every one can take a bit of a breather. But it would have to play to TNG's strengths. You're right that a TVH type story probably wouldn't work with TNG crew (as we saw in Insurrection). They could still make it lighter and have some humor (after all, there were some more comical TNG episodes), but it'd have to be something that made sense for TNG and felt like TNG, not like them pretending to be like the original series.
In a lot of ways TUC was to TFF what TWOK was to TMP. Fair or not, TFF and TMP were looked at unfavorably by the suits and they asked Meyer to basically come in and do a reset in both cases. And they mostly ignored the previous film in both cases (though, to be fair, neither film contradicted the previous film either). If TFF had done better they may not have called upon Meyer at all, in fact, they might have given Shatner another shot at directing a 2nd film. I recall reading that Shatner had asked Meyer to touch up his script a bit but he was busy. I always wondered if Meyer had touched it up would that have helped some of the flaws with TFF. Meyer had his good points and he might have tightened some things up...and maybe he could have gone to bat for Shatner about the excessive humor. If Meyer, the director of the well-regarded TWOK, had gone to Paramount and said the humor was just not going to work in that type of story maybe the suits would have paid more attention and made it more dramatic. Granted, that's pure speculation. It didn't happen that way and we'll never know. There were maybe 2 or 3 things I saw in TUC that maybe you could say followed from TFF (even if it was just coincidentally), other than the set design. One of those was Kirk's hatred of Klingons. It was still in it's early stages in TFF, but by the time of TUC it had festered for several more years and grew, which in a real world sort of way makes sense. And one thing I did like about TUC is at the end Kirk finally has that 'redeeming' moment where he lets go of his hatred and basically comes to terms with how he feels about Klingons. Another thing I picked up on is the mind meld sequence of Spock and Valeris was reminiscent of Sybok in TFF (even down to the sound of the heartbeat in both films)....though I was always a bit bothered by the forcible mind meld, which to Vulcans is akin to rape. Now, granted the stakes were high and Spock probably would have done it because the stakes were really that high. But I think he would have done it with more revulsion, not the anger he showed when he forced the meld on her.
I noticed that about the mind-meld sequence as well....it was almost exactly the same as the atmosphere and music/sound for Sybok's process in TFF. The novel does a really nice job highlighting the "share your pain" mindmeld backstory as well. Good stuff.
I agree, and I think Shatner would have been given more free reign if that had been the case. But, it also points to why TFF is higher on my list than most films is that it does great as a stand alone adventure for this crew. There is nothing really there that makes it mandatory viewing in any particular order. It's just fun. TUC, on the other hand, is very much a culmination of TOS and Kirk's arc in particular from TWOK on. This feeling of old age and death creeping up, these part hurts and pains that he has been holding on to for years. All of it weaves together in a very tangible way that makes Kirk more human than a lot of other characters. I know a lot is laid on Meyer for making the cast of heroes bigots that need to grow but, as you say, in a real world way makes sense. For me, that's why TUC hits the top spot. It has real world teeth to it in a way is incredibly interesting to me. Kirk has never been shy about be against Klingons; he argue vehemently against them with the Organians, wants revenge on Kras on Capella; even his comment towards Saavik in TWOK could be seen as a stereotypical exaggeration because Kirk knows first hand that Klingons do take prisoners. The final push being the death of David and his fight with Kruge and I think Kirk's bitterness makes a lot of sense if you are willing to take on the whole of TOS. And the rest of the crew may simply have suffered from a bit of sudden change-the Klingons who were our enemies are now to be our allies? We've been fighting them for years! And before anyone goes "Oh, you're just excusing bigotry because you like the story" I don't think how far they got portrayed was necessarily the best but it is understandable if given the acknowledgement of history with Klingons. As for the mind meld scene I just cringe every time. It's a scene that I find really strange with Spock and I know Nimoy tried to play it a certain way but it just landed awkwardly.
The question "What does God need with a starship?" is a little out there. I mean why didn't he ask, what does god need you to be in one place rather than another or what does god need to do anything at all. Isn't it enough that "he created the universe", what else needs to be said or done? This whole quest is pointless.
I thought it was a great question and the conflict after served its purpose. I think the quest is pointless without the struggle, just look at the first 3 Indiana Jones films the mcguffin is just the sprinkles to what this thing is about. The characters' journey and what it means to them and what does these characters personally hoped to achieve? If we were with Shatner just to brainstorm this concept which what we're doing now, he could've at least seen some options in making V an actual story. Reading Nimoy's and Meyer's books on the topic they shared they had no interest in the idea at all and dismissed it. Hard to imagine Lucas and Spielberg shunning a concept which many people throughout the world value, probably why those guys know to make blockbuster movies so often in their careers. Ideas are valuable when they're explored with a sense of seriousness. TFF is a great concept.
Well, part of what was Shatner's initial idea was that they find the literal devil, not just a random being.
In Indiana Jones, they find the literal Ark and the Grail. This would have felt similar. It would have been a very interesting direction to go in for Trek. I align with @STEPhon IT in that I also don’t think the “quest is useless.” I think it’s fully conceivable that someone’s faith (in this case, ancient Vulcan lore that Sybok had bought into) would dictate that “God” would appear to anyone who was savvy and brave enough to find him and overcome the fears of the Great Barrier. Sybok never said that “God” lived on Sha Ka Ree. He simply started that “he waits for us on the other side.” I’ve chosen to interpret that as Sybok / Ye Olde Vulcan Religion believing that the trip beyond the barrier is a test or a challenge, and “God” will appear to only those who past the test of faith. Seems totally reasonable in that context.
It's something Roddenberry wanted to explore with an early movie idea before TMP (it actually caused a bit of friction when TFF came out because it did deal with some similar concepts). This is where the novel really does a good job with TFF. It fleshes out the story more. It makes more sense after reading the novel. You get a lot more information on Sybok and his motivations. A few things led to the movie's weaknesses IMO, beyond the awful special effects (which is something that actually could be fixed if the studio were inclined). The story wasn't fleshed out enough. Paramount insisting on more humor didn't help either. This was a dramatic story trying to be funny. Then there was mistakes made on the journey. Even setting aside the fact that it should have taken the Enterprise decades to reach the 'center' of the galaxy, as I noted before they built up the Great Barrier as something much larger than it was. We finally get there and then....poof, literally. My thought was "that was it....that was the Great Barrier?" Worse thing you can do to an audience is set up an expectation that they are going to have to face some harrowing journey and then you fail to deliver. 'Sha-ka-ree' was a bit underwhelming as well, but I suppose expected. At least in the Judeo-Christian faiths God is usually not depicted as some show off. Simple is probably the right way to go in that respect. I do like that Kirk wondered what 'God' needed with a starship. I mean, that's a reasonable question. Even Q, who is not God, didn't need a starship to get around so it's reasonable to think the God wouldn't need one either. In a way, finally someone in one of these movies asks the unasked question. Um, this doesn't make sense, can you explain it for me. I also liked that Kirk at the end wondered if God does not reside within each one of us. That we look for Him 'out there', when really He is here within us. As a Christian myself I'd like to think so. Anyway, I think the script could have used some polishing. I believe there was a writer's strike at the time (which also affected season 2 of TNG) so that may have affected their ability to get rewrites. And, well, the effects which I've already beaten a dead horse several hundred times about (but they are that bad ). And who can forget deck 78? I read Zimmerman tried to tell Shatner that the Enterprise-A only had like 15 or 20 decks (I forget the exact number) and they start at deck 1 at the top and work their way down. I mean, when your production designer is trying to give you some advice you maybe should listen, that is what you hired him for after all. That sort of sticks out like a sore thumb. No Starfleet ship has 78 decks. Hell, not even the Enterprise-D, probably the biggest ship, or the -E, comes close. But the movie has it's positives. Great character moments. I really liked Sybok. I liked that TFF gave us a different kind of story. It wasn't your typical villain-hero story and there was really no vengeance involved (except maybe Klaa wanted to take down Kirk-but that was more about his personal glory and not really about revenge anyway). I like twists and while Sybok is presented as a villain in the early going, we learn that he really is not a villain. And this movie is some of Goldsmith's best work of all the movies. When I first saw the movie poster before the film came out and saw Goldsmith's name attached to do the music I knew at least that part of the movie would be good. I was looking forward to hearing TMP theme in the theater for the first time (and it sounded even better in TFF). And I liked the little added touch when the camera slowly does a zoom in on the monitor warning of the Klingon ship approaching (though that does beg the question of why the tactical officer wasn't minding their post--I mean, they were still in an unknown sector of space, you'd think whomever it was should have been paying attention, but I digress). That shot reminded me just a bit of something Alfred Hitchcock would do (and had done in some movies--I recall one movie where he started a wide angle shot and slowly zoomed in over a bunch of people until he focused on the culprit up close playing drums in the very back of a dance hall). It's just a shame because there was potential for a much better film. And I think it was @Vger23 that pointed out that TFF is one basically two original series films you could watch independent of all the others (along with TMP). While it does follow the 3 films before it, you can watch it by itself, and TUC really doesn't follow TFF either. So it's a good standalone Star Trek film you can watch when you just want some Star Trek comfort food. It's probably the most TV series like of the 6 films (maybe 3rd season--but I liked 3rd season Star Trek so that's ok ).
Yeah, there's certainly plenty of faiths that require some test or challenge to reach the 'other side.' There's certainly a great story that can be told from that context. TFF just sort of failed in the sense that it didn't explore that challenge more. It handled that sloppily. Perhaps they could have tied Sybok's journey into people's 'pain' into that journey a bit more overtly, and certainly the Great Barrier could have played a great role in that journey. Had their trip involved more peril, more challenges, then they finally overcome those challenges to reach 'Sha-ka-ree' it would have felt more like a true victory. And the disappointment at finding this entity was just a hostile impostor would have been greater. Then at the end, Kirk's statement that maybe we're going about things the wrong way, maybe God was within us all the time, would have had greater meaning. 'We did all this, faced an incredible test of some sort, and what we were looking for was here all the time.
Well, I make the statement in reference to why Nimoy and Meyer might give it a pass. I certainly appreciate the theme that Shatner was going for-the journey of personal faith and its expression are one of my favorite stories. I just can see why others might take a pass on it. Even Roddenberry was not keen as one of his initial pitches was titled "The God Thing" for TMP.
100% In many ways, I love TFF for what it could have been, and not as much for what it actually was. It needed a lot more story refinement. My imagination fills in a lot of the blanks.
Does the novelization described Kirk, Spock and McCoy's motivations? The concept can not work if this was not expressed and getting back the Enterprise was a given, what I loved about the 3 Indiana Jones films were the protagonist starts out as a skeptic, he's intrigued by the McGuffin and understands its lore, but it doesn't mean anything to him... until it does. He goes into the adventure for personal reasons like his regret of not keeping his girlfriend, or getting the opportunity to discover his father or repaying a debt to find lost children. I understand Sybok's motivations but what I wanted to learn more about Kirk's motivations, his son was murdered on Genesis where his best friend Spock was resurrected, I can imagine the conflict there. If the planet didn't explode the same process could've happened to David. What happened to Spock was a miracle, it was something Sybok and everyone in the story should be talking about, he's the elephant in the room, Damian!!! Spock should be the focal point of the plot because he's proof miracles can happen, I was surprised the 2 didn't have that alone to connect with. McCoy touched on this in TVH and should've continued in V. Spock should be as intrigued as everyone else and would be conflicted between his loyalty to Kirk and his brother. How about McCoy, the movie touch on the illness of his father but it's not enough, I would love to know if he was conflicted between science and his faith. None of these interesting issues many medical and science professionals go through all of the time was never even invited, a tale like that should be the heart of the movie. As I mentioned earlier, the climbing of the mountain and falling was a nice foreshadow for things to come and was never explored, and finding God within is a cop out and a betrayal of the concept because the journey and its obstacles and what surrounds them should've been the meaning but we have to see something. Even if the prisoned alien is not God, something miraculous should happen and a photon torpedo or whatever the Klingon weapon used is not the answer. The movie demanded a divine intervention sequence to occur and it was never approached??? Maybe the novelization had those things, you know the elements of having faith.