Why do so many people hate 'Insurrection' so much?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Stroudarian, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    For starters, so many cringeworthy moments - the slow pan as they did their gunfighter poses, the dialog (the "day of lightning" bit, Data's boob joke, etc), the joystick, the bazooka.

    Then there's the laziness (Worf's unexplained presence, having the Baku all look perfectly human, etc), bad editing (the cut from dark caves to glaring sunlight elicits a groan from the audience every time), bad effects (the shuttle in particular), the clichéd bad admiral...

    Plus overall it's just really bland.

    I was just reading the Fifty Year Mission accounts of the writing process, and it explains a lot.
     
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  2. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd love to hear more about the insights on the writing process.
     
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  3. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    Except Generations, where Picard gets smacked around by some old guy. Twice. :)
     
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  4. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I actually thought INS was the most out-of-character and action-heroish portrayal of Picard out of all of them
     
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  5. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That and the stupid Argo rover.
     
  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    True! But even that came off as a "moderately inappropriate potential mid-life crisis moment" as opposed to "horndawg rebellious phaser rifle leather jacket badass guy" that showed up for INS.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, but then you consider the Prime Directive violations (non warp capable species), the lack of a windshield (rocks can hurt) and the "Dukes of Hazard" jump of the cliff. Yeah, INS was definitely ridiculous but Picard then went as a one man commando team against the Remans. It's a toss up.

    But its only bad if Abrams does it ;) lol
     
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  8. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It's actually a tragedy how much better a film Nemesis could have been. You trim out the conflict with the Kolarans you're referring to (heck, they can still go exploring and collecting the B4 parts...just axe the chase scene) and add back in about 90% of the deleted material which fleshed out the characters and themes of the film, it might have been a really good flick.
     
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  9. marsh8472

    marsh8472 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    yeah I kept falling asleep to this movie when I first saw it. Once I opened my mind up more and saw the good parts it wasn't as bad. Mainly what it would take to get the crew to rebel against star fleet. The same kind of concept as DS9 "The Search pt 2"
     
  10. Tosk

    Tosk Admiral Admiral

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    In INS' defense, the storyline itself did provide a reason for Picard acting a little differently.
     
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  11. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don't hate the film, but the supposed ethical dilemma doesn't work for me, particularly in that I ultimately find the Son'a potentially more sympathetic than the Baku, the logistics of the conflict don't even make sense to me (how did the Baku manage to exile the Son'a, and why can't they defend themselves the same way now?). Perhaps most damning, there was a tv show on at the same time that was doing far more interesting and relevant to the franchise things, and somehow TPTB felt it was better to do a movie that would essentially act like all of that didn't exist.

    Plus, as an earlier poster said, I don't see how there's ultimately any room for a happy ending here. Unless the Federation is planning to deploy a permanent force to defend the Baku world, sooner or later someone's going to come along and finish what the Son'a were willing to start. Probably someone who's not even willing to show the good faith to work through Federation channels as the Son'a did. Granted the Son'a weren't entirely honest about the situation, but they also didn't just send a fleet through either.
     
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  12. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would imagine that the vast majority of inhabited systems surrounded by Federation space aren't Federation members, don't consider themselves to be a part of the Federation, and aren't claimed by the Federation. The Federation likely (I think) doesn't extend into most non-Federation inhabited systems. There are probably hundreds of areas that are claimed by multiple federations, assemblies, republics, and so forth.

    But the movie explains that it goes beyond the world just being a planet surrounded by Federation space. It's a case of ...

    Picard: A planet in Federation space.
    Dougherty: That's right. We have the planet.

    It's a Federation planet, not merely one of the planets surrounded by the Federation. The Federation has the planet, the star system, the brier patch.
    If you mean DS9, then no it wasn't. And the greater audience was going to see a TNG movie, which was continuation of the previous two Star Trek movies.

    There was no reason to include any kind of DS9 "spill over."
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  13. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^You mean beyond the fact that we would probably have ended up with a better film? Sure, okay.
     
  14. donners22

    donners22 Commodore Commodore

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    There are several sources - The Fifty Year Mission, Secrets of Star Trek Insurrection and Fade In.

    The very short version was that it was originally a substantially darker and more impactful tale, wherein Picard loses his Starfleet commission and is involved in a lengthy and ongoing battle with Data. Stewart and/or the studio hated it.

    Stewart, it should be noted, had a clause in his contract allowing him to bring in a writer to re-write scripts, which he exercised on First Contact. That undoubtedly made the writers gunshy about conflicts with him. Spiner also had substantial power.
     
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  15. ItIsGreen

    ItIsGreen Captain Captain

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    I've seen that argument raised a few times, and it just plain doesn't make any sense. Is the Federation in the business of claiming ownership of planets with existing populations on them? Whether or not that population is indigenous is irrelevant; they've clearly been there since before the Federation laid claim to the planet, ergo the planet is theirs. The only way the Federation claim on the planet makes sense is if they didn't know the Ba'ku were there - as soon as they were discovered it (should have) made the Federation claim null and void. The fact that there are some within the Federation willing to turn a blind eye to this, wilfully ignore the Prime Directive, and work with known enemies to surreptitiously move the Ba'ku off world in order to profit from an unusual natural resource is exactly what Picard is insurrecting against.
     
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  16. F. King Daniel

    F. King Daniel Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Wasn't there a whole book published online for free about the making of Insurrection?? Does anyone remember?
     
  17. MacLeod

    MacLeod Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed.
     
  18. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Picard was insurrecting against the fact that he wouldn't get to play with Anij if the plan all went down.
     
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  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One of the cable channels I get has been playing Star Trek movies all week. I think it's just a straight-out marathon this weekend.

    Anyway, caught some of INS yesterday. Nothing is more laughable than when, on the "day of lightning," the phaser bolts hit the Ba'ku village bridge, and the bridge shakes like a balsa wood prop with a little spark and smoke coming out of it.

    Awesome stuff right there.

    Ah, and purple bazooka bolts. Also quite awesome.
     
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  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So if I'm squatting on land that you legally purchase, my rights should trump yours?
     
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