Why do People like Ezri?

[Admiral Shran]

I won't get back onto the "off-topic" topic. I've said what I wanted to and I stand by it.

Back "on-topic"....

Frankly...Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

That kinda proved my original point. Goes to show--she practically flirts with every guy out there except for the Siskos, Odo, and O'Brien.

Drives me nuts--no, not in the "good" way.

Morn--Quark--Bashir--Boday--and now a Jem'Hadar.

Somehow...it looks like Ezri was only being half-sarcastic when she said about Jadzia, "I don't think there was anyone aboard DS9 who wasn't her lover!"

I'm sorry to say, but if you were trying to explain that your dislike of Jadzia was based on something more than puritan, prudish attitudes about women and sexuality, I think you are failing here.

You can be unprudish and non-puritanical and not take it to extremes, which is what Jadzia did in my opinion.

Jadzia would clearly be a fun person to hang out with. But as a lover, it's quite clear that it's all about her, her, her.

 

[iguana_tonante]

You can be unprudish and non-puritanical and not take it to extremes, which is what Jadzia did in my opinion.

Jadzia would clearly be a fun person to hang out with. But as a lover, it's quite clear that it's all about her, her, her.

I think we are going to agree to disagree about it, because I don't see that at all. She's a challenge, true that. She's not going to make it easy to be her partner. But she's also kind, and dependable, and unfailingly loyal to her friends and principles. Her combativeness and flirtatiousness just make her more interesting in my book, but I understand that's just me. I have no great attachment to her character, but seeing a female protagonist labelled with unfavourable words due to those characterises strikes me as old-fashioned, and not in a good way.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

You can be unprudish and non-puritanical and not take it to extremes, which is what Jadzia did in my opinion.

Jadzia would clearly be a fun person to hang out with. But as a lover, it's quite clear that it's all about her, her, her.

Exactly. And that's not right (OR attractive) for a man or a woman. I have no problem calling men out on that kind of selfish behavior, either; restraint and selflessness, which society expects from women, should be expected from men as well. No double standard, no ability to make it so that a woman is a "slut" but a man is a "playa" ("player," for those not used to the colloquialism).

Mind you, I am not talking about passing laws, before anyone gets any ideas that I want the government to regulate what people do in their bedrooms. What I am talking about is social opinion--and people exercising self-control and valuing committed and caring relationships rather than treating each other like toys to use for a bit and then throw away.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Exactly.

^I would say, then, that tolerance of the whole thing is basically either a pathetic case of mass submission to political correctness...or else masochism.

Wut?

Don't ask. I'll get set off again about the "feminist takeover" of our culture--and that'll just start the "unleasing" all over again....

I'm not sure I understand you, but it seems to me you are arguing a contradiction here: first you talk about a "feminist takeover" of our culture (yeah, let me do it: ), but then you say that "male chauvinism" is a big problem. Which one is true?

Both. The "feminist takeover" is in the culture in general--with "male chauvinism" being an unfortunate (and frankly unsuccesful) retaliation in the war.

Contradictions don't exist in reality, mate. If you seem to see one, check your premesis. You'll find that one of them is wrong.

Technically, no--but I'm not sure what you're point is....

Just curious. I was trying to avoid imagining you dressed in an argyle sweater coming straight out of the 50s...

Well, I have been called an "old soul" at times. I take after my grandmother--I take a liking to classic films and musicals, and hold modern films to that standard.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You can be unprudish and non-puritanical and not take it to extremes, which is what Jadzia did in my opinion.

Jadzia would clearly be a fun person to hang out with. But as a lover, it's quite clear that it's all about her, her, her.

I think we are going to agree to disagree about it, because I don't see that at all. She's a challenge, true that. She's not going to make it easy to be her partner. But she's also kind, and dependable, and unfailingly loyal to her friends and principles.

It's interesting--Ezri, of course, shares those qualities--kind, dependable, loyal, and true to herself (I'd say more so than Jadzia). She's even a "challenge"--but she's a different kind of challenge.

As an example of this, note her reactions when Jake and Quark tried to make moves on her. She behaves as if she is innocently unaware of their attraction, talking their offers of help or their words of "advice" and "support" at face value, and on-the-surface.

Also, I think her reaction to what she sees as Julian's flirting in "Afterimage" gives us some clues as to her "challenge". She says she doesn't know how to handle that kind of thing. One gets the idea, especially later in the show--particularly in "The Dogs Of War"--that she takes the idea of romance very, very seriously, and doesn't want to be just "swept away in a romantic fantasy".

Thus, we can infer that Ezri's standards are quite high indeed--and this is the challenge: to be, effectively, worthy of her affections.

Her combativeness and flirtatiousness just make her more interesting in my book, but I understand that's just me. I have no great attachment to her character, but seeing a female protagonist labelled with unfavourable words due to those characterises strikes me as old-fashioned, and not in a good way.

Too..."Conservative"?

 

[iguana_tonante]

And that's not right (OR attractive) for a man or a woman.

As for what's attractive, I'll let everybody decide for themselves. As for what's right... wait, I'll let everybody decide it for themselves, too. I'm funny like that: not trying to pass judgement on people's behaviour if they don't conform with my narrow standards of morality.

What I am talking about is social opinion--and people exercising self-control and valuing committed and caring relationships rather than treating each other like toys to use for a bit and then throw away.

You seem to be under the impression that being sexually relaxed stems from a lack of restrain, or that being flirty implies an inability to pursue and commit to a caring relationship. That's patently untrue. That might be true for you, but that's not true for everybody. In fact, it's usually the opposite: people that customarily enjoy a glass of wine with dinner are less likely to get catastrophically drunk than people who are not used to drink.

Both. The "feminist takeover" is in the culture in general--with "male chauvinism" being an unfortunate (and frankly unsuccesful) retaliation in the war.

So let me get this straight: feminists have taken over the world, downgrading men to second class citizens and routinely stomping on men's rights and opportunities, and in retaliation for that unfair, humiliating treatment, the phenomenon of male chauvinism has risen, but it's mostly unsuccessful. If that's really what you think, frankly I have no words.

Contradictions don't exist in reality, mate. If you seem to see one, check your premesis. You'll find that one of them is wrong.

Contradictions do exists in your argument, tho, and your way to address them is to dig yourself in the sand more deeply.

Well, I have been called an "old soul" at times. I take after my grandmother--I take a liking to classic films and musicals, and hold modern films to that standard.

The "good ol' times" were terrible, oppressive, bleak and virtually unredeemable for everybody except if you were white, male and rich. "Old souls" are distinguished by wisdom and compassion (something I'm not seeing in your arguments here), not by a misplaced desire to go back at imagined times past when the streets were clean, the kids didn't talk back to their parents, and people were nice to their neighbours. Those. Times. Never. Existed.

Thus, we can infer that Ezri's standards are quite high indeed--and this is the challenge: to be, effectively, worthy of her affections.

I don't know why you are arguing this with me, when it's clear that I'm no Ezri basher: if you read back, I haven't made a single negative comment on her behaviour.

I have no great attachment to her character, but seeing a female protagonist labelled with unfavourable words due to those characterises strikes me as old-fashioned, and not in a good way.

Too..."Conservative"?

I'm not a fish, and I'm not taking your bait.

 

[Rush Limborg]

iguana_torrone, you act as if you take everything you disagree with personally. Kindly stop exaggerating what I and others have said into straw men--and stop puting words in our mouths.

I did not accuse you of Ezri Bashing (I was clearly just using your remarks on Jadzia to refer to the original topic--"Why do People like Ezri?")--I did not refer to the "those times" as perfect--I did not express any imagined desire to go back to "those imagined times". In fact, I made no comments at all about "the good old days" (my comment was on movies).

You make similar exaggerations and false claims about others, like Nerys--and then you accuse us of being "judgemental"?

Frankly, some would call what you're doing "trolling". It is tiring to me...and it's tiring for everyone else. Please stop pulling this thread into angry arguments, lest it be locked down.

 

[Thestral]

You know...I can't help but wonder if her integrating Joran was what let to her unfortunate changes of personality in the relaunch. It certainly would explain a lot....

Perhaps best not to chase *that* rabbit down the hole here; maybe in TrekLit sometime?

Frankly...Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

Well, to each their own - but remember, most of the strongest "Julian interested in Jadzia" threads happened pre-Facets.

... "... so let me get this straight: No sleep. No food. No women. No wonder you're so angry. After thirty or forty years of that I'd be angry too." (Thank you Memory Alpha!)

That kinda proved my original point. Goes to show--she practically flirts with every guy out there except for the Siskos, Odo, and O'Brien.

Drives me nuts--no, not in the "good" way.

Morn--Quark--Bashir--Boday--and now a Jem'Hadar.

Weeellll. I think you're misreading that bit without the context. Here (start between 2:25-2:30):

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fupJfBh7ATA[/yt]

"I... am 8."

That scene never fails to crack me up... and if anybody's doing much flirting, it's the Jem'Hadar.

Anyway, she certainly did flirt with Ben - or did you miss Fascination? And you seem to be awfully hung up on Boday, who was more of a running gag than a character and was never seen.

Mind you, I am not talking about passing laws, before anyone gets any ideas that I want the government to regulate what people do in their bedrooms. What I am talking about is social opinion--and people exercising self-control and valuing committed and caring relationships rather than treating each other like toys to use for a bit and then throw away.

There's a wide, vast gulf between "committed relationship" and "treating each other like toys;" and it's in that gulf that Jadzia apparently fell (though not with any main characters) before Worf came along. Unless you can find an example of Dax treating somebody like a toy and then throwing him/her away?

Both. The "feminist takeover" is in the culture in general--with "male chauvinism" being an unfortunate (and frankly unsuccesful) retaliation in the war.

Also, what is this "war" of which you speak?

It's interesting--Ezri, of course, shares those qualities--kind, dependable, loyal, and true to herself (I'd say more so than Jadzia). She's even a "challenge"--but she's a different kind of challenge.

As an example of this, note her reactions when Jake and Quark tried to make moves on her. She behaves as if she is innocently unaware of their attraction, talking their offers of help or their words of "advice" and "support" at face value, and on-the-surface.

So - if I'm reading you correctly - the "challenge" that you see Ezri presenting is that Jake or Quark should have been blunt about being interested in getting in her pants (or, okay, being kinder about: blunt about their romantic interest towards her) rather than working first on a friendly relationship?

Thus, we can infer that Ezri's standards are quite high indeed--and this is the challenge: to be, effectively, worthy of her affections.

Or apparently was reading was incorrect. So what did Bashir do to prove himself "worthy" or her affections that Quark, for example, didn't?

Frankly, some would call what you're doing "trolling". It is tiring to me...and it's tiring for everyone else. Please stop pulling this thread into angry arguments, lest it be locked down.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You know...I can't help but wonder if her integrating Joran was what let to her unfortunate changes of personality in the relaunch. It certainly would explain a lot....

Perhaps best not to chase *that* rabbit down the hole here; maybe in TrekLit sometime?

Perhaps I will, sometime.

Frankly...Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

Well, to each their own - but remember, most of the strongest "Julian interested in Jadzia" threads happened pre-Facets.

Touche. Still--it was in the Second Season that the creators decided to make her more "wild", more of a Party Girl.

But even from the first season, she has the coy, amused, teasing and altogether confusing attitude around him (indeed--one could say Season 1 was the worst as far as that is concerned....).

Weeellll. I think you're misreading that bit without the context.

...if anybody's doing much flirting, it's the Jem'Hadar.

Oh...I'd say it's a bit of both ways, in that case.

Anyway, she certainly did flirt with Ben - or did you miss Fascination?

I'll give you that. But that kinda proves my point even more, then!

And you seem to be awfully hung up on Boday, who was more of a running gag than a character and was never seen.

Well, just as Morn apparently was a chatterbox (albeit off camera)...

There's a wide, vast gulf between "committed relationship" and "treating each other like toys;" and it's in that gulf that Jadzia apparently fell (though not with any main characters) before Worf came along. Unless you can find an example of Dax treating somebody like a toy and then throwing him/her away?

Well, that gulf, to be frank, seems to be more of a "grey area". Still, that doesn't make it any less uncomfortable....

So - if I'm reading you correctly - the "challenge" that you see Ezri presenting is that Jake or Quark should have been blunt about being interested in getting in her pants (or, okay, being kinder about: blunt about their romantic interest towards her) rather than working first on a friendly relationship?

You are not reading me correctly. I'll explain next--

Thus, we can infer that Ezri's standards are quite high indeed--and this is the challenge: to be, effectively, worthy of her affections.

Or apparently was reading was incorrect. So what did Bashir do to prove himself "worthy" or her affections that Quark, for example, didn't?

It's not so much one specific thing he had done, as it is who he is--his character, his spirit, his soul, his personality.

Frankly, some would call what you're doing "trolling". It is tiring to me...and it's tiring for everyone else. Please stop pulling this thread into angry arguments, lest it be locked down.

 

[JustKate]

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way but I believe I am in the minority when I say that I liked them both for different reasons. At least one or two other people who have contributed to this thread have mentioned that they feel this way, too, but I don't think we're typical.

What I liked about Jadzia is that she seemed to have a certain gusto for life. That was fun to watch - and not all that common among all those uptight Starfleet types.

I do think some of you are being a little harsh re. her relationships. I really don't think she was a man-eater or anything...I saw her little games with Bashir and Quark as pretty harmless - they were literally just light-hearted games. I mean, if we were supposed to deduce that she was genuinely hurting either of them, then all I can say is that I didn't see any of that.

And to be honest, they more or less got what they deserved. They both made plays for women a LOT, and it seemed to me that although they found Jadzia attractive, neither one of them was any more serious than she was. Besides, they knew - they had to know pretty early on (I mean, I certainly did) - exactly what she was doing, which was just having a little fun, and if they kept falling for it, whose fault is that? I just don't have a lot of sympathy (a little maybe but not a lot) for anybody, man or woman, fictional or real life, who lets somebody manipulate him/her over and over again. Let me be clear - I don't think what she did counts as manipulation, but even if it did, part of the fault would have to lie with those who let her repeatedly get away with it. Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

What I liked about Ezri is that I really do think she was in most ways a more realistic character. There were some exceptions, of course, but Jadzia really came across as just a bit too good to be true most of the time. I liked Ezri's uncertainty and the way she was trying to feel her way most of the time - it reminded me just a bit of everybody's (including mine) favorite oddball, Reg Barclay. Starfleet needs more Reges (sp?), if you ask me.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Well, I see what you're saying about Jadzia...and I don't think at all that she'd done what she'd done with any atual intention of malice.

But let's be honest, folks. Like it or not...there is always a certain power women have. Hold the tomatoes, ladies--I'm just saying: it's a "disarming" factor, partcularly if the girl's attractive.

My problem with Jadzia is that she used it on men for her own amusement, without much regard to restraint, on how it affects men.

Ezri either isn't too concious of her power...or she is very careful to keep it in check. (It's probably the former, considering her innocent kiss on Quark's cheek, and a few other things....)

 

[Deckerd]

I'm sorry but if she has Jadzia's memories she knows exactly how to manipulate men. You can't have it both ways. Someone with 8 people's memories, frankly, doesn't have a lot of surprises left in her life.

 

[ares93]

I'm sorry but if she has Jadzia's memories she knows exactly how to manipulate men. You can't have it both ways. Someone with 8 people's memories, frankly, doesn't have a lot of surprises left in her life.

yeah, and i know how to handle and AK47. that doesn't mean i'm gonna go on a killing spree. theres a difference between knowing somthing, and making use of that knowledge.

 

[Deckerd]

I'm not saying she has no restraint. Obviously that would be a stupid thing to say. But to suggest she's a naive little angel in a world of badness is also a stupid thing to say.

 

[ares93]

I'm not saying she has no restraint. Obviously that would be a stupid thing to say. But to suggest she's a naive little angel in a world of badness is also a stupid thing to say.

hmm, you do have a good point on that one.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Also, what is this "war" of which you speak?

http://www.amazon.com/WAR-AGAINST-BOYS-Misguided-Feminism/dp/0684849577/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Men-Richard-Hise/dp/1930859619/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Spreading-Misandry-Teaching-Contempt-Popular/dp/0773530991/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Mi...mination-Against/dp/0773528628/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Sanctifying-Misandry-Goddess-Ideology-Fall/dp/0773536159/ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Males-Matter-Women-Should/dp/1400065798/ref=pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=pd_sim_b_3

 

[ares93]

Also, what is this "war" of which you speak?

http://www.amazon.com/WAR-AGAINST-BOYS-Misguided-Feminism/dp/0684849577/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Men-Richard-Hise/dp/1930859619/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Spreading-Misandry-Teaching-Contempt-Popular/dp/0773530991/ref=pd_sim_b_10

http://www.amazon.com/Legalizing-Mi...mination-Against/dp/0773528628/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Sanctifying-Misandry-Goddess-Ideology-Fall/dp/0773536159/ref=pd_sim_b_2

http://www.amazon.com/Save-Males-Matter-Women-Should/dp/1400065798/ref=pd_sim_b_4

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448/ref=pd_sim_b_3

I'd love to hear your counter argument on this one.

A picture says more than a thousand words:

 

[iguana_tonante]

iguana_torrone, you act as if you take everything you disagree with personally.

That's funny, coming from a guy that takes it on himself to "defend a woman's honour" in regard to fictional characters. I don't take it personally. I obviously have no ill feelings towards anybody. It's called being passionate in a debate. I'm an impassioned speaker when I talk about statistical distribution of baryonic matter in the HST deep field, too. I suppose you would label my seminars here at the university as furious rants.

Kindly stop exaggerating what I and others have said into straw men--and stop puting words in our mouths.

It didn't seem to me I exaggerated any of your positions in regards of the "sex war" . If I unwillingly did, I apologize. But I'd also like to see where I did it.

You make similar exaggerations and false claims about others, like Nerys--and then you accuse us of being "judgemental"?

I'm sorry, how is saying "she's egotistical, vain and slutty because she likes to flirt with people" not judgemental?

Frankly, some would call what you're doing "trolling". It is tiring to me...and it's tiring for everyone else. Please stop pulling this thread into angry arguments, lest it be locked down.

I have no intent in having this locked down. I'm sure people here can discriminate between passionate debate and angry arguments. As for your accuses of trolling, I won't dignify them with an answer.

A picture says more than a thousand words:

So I suppose I could show you seven books about Roswell or 9/11 Truthers and that would make it real. Your standards for "owning" someone seem somehow lax.

The "bumbling husband" steretype in tv (which does exist), is a problem just as the "stupid blond bimbo" stereotype, but I don't see you up in arms about that.

 

[ares93]

So I suppose I could show you seven books about Roswell or 9/11 Truthers and that would make it real. Your standards for "owning" someone seem somehow lax.

For gods sake, mate. You didn't notice that i was joking with that pic? How the hell can you take crap like thats seriously? Christ... You're incredible.

 

[CaptainStoner]

It's a different kind of inequality and in fact, a lot of the inequalities that men face are a result of the historical male domination of society.

That's an important point - the double edged sword - and it hints at other problems with gender equality, where men are often bombarded with negativity just for being men, "all men are pigs", etc. We practically take that as gospel when it's not different from saying "all women are bitches". The constant use of negatives on the other gender are ingrained.
A lot of men are still uncomfortable about "uppity" women. How often does one see a man who must contradict what a woman says, even if he doesn't know what he's talking about? Especially one generation and more back, men are always belittling women's intelligence. Women bite back in various ways. The difference is that usually men are the babies; they can't be confronted with their shit without losing it.
On another pole we have PC gender neutrality, which we all know is ridiculous. But conservatives will confuse that with equality, and liberals will use it (neutrality) to counter disparities.
All I know is, I don't want any daughter of mine growing up thinking she's a selfish bitch for enjoying her life while not subscribing to the whole swirly mess of gender conformity.