Why do People like Ezri?

[Rush Limborg]

I'm sorry, who was the star of this movie?

Wasn't it Sam Worthington?

Isn't he - wait for this - a man?

How many movies like Clash of the Titans do not star men and also make money?

Likewise:
The Wolf Man (2010)
Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen
Yes Man
My Super Ex-Girlfriend

Men men men. Men.

So your argument is basically - men star in these movies, so it's okay to physically assault them, ruin their lives for fun, kidnap them, rape them, abuse them for laughs, and kill them while feeling no remorse about it?

Well then, I guess it's a good thing that more movies don't have female leads, because, after all, if one stars in the movie, I'll be justified in just laughing myself silly when she's assaulted, raped and killed.

Mate, not that i dont agree with most of your arguements, but youre walking a fine line here.

Yeah--I can imagine the pinheads: "ADMIRAL SHRAN FINDS FEMALE ASSAULT TO BE AMUSING!"

Ah, shaddap....

(No, not you, ares93...the pinheads. )

Look--in Shran's defense, let me state for the record to the wolves who may be reading his post...that he is engaging in something called satire--a Modest Proposal--Demonstrating Absurdity By Being Absurd.

Jonathan Swift did worse with his Modest Proposal....

And it's embarrasing that he and I have to explain it to all....

 

[Kegg]

So your argument is basically - men star in these movies, so it's okay to physically assault them, ruin their lives for fun, kidnap them, rape them, abuse them for laughs, and kill them while feeling no remorse about it?

No, my argument is basically this is not even remotely similar to the actually negative depictons of gender and race, as evidenced by the fact that any number of these titles continue to have the positve but essential male lead.

Ergo what we're looking at here is not discrimination against men. At all. Not even notionally. The portrayal of women and minorities in many of these films can take, for example, something of a Magic Negro tack - they've been defined as different, an other, inserted for diversity, turned into characters without desires of their own but with friendly and informative advice for the white male hero.

See for instance: Every Morgan Freeman role in the history of ever.

The women in these films can be objectified and exist as little more then sex toys or companions for the male hero. Megan Fox in Transformers, for example.

What's the biggest grossing film recently? Is it another Sam Worthington vehicle where a heroic male proves, just cause shit man I'm a white dude, we think outside the box he's able to tame a beast the natives and native women were unable to do so and winds up leading them all in a revolution against the enemy.

But no. You're right. When a guy gets kicked in the nutsack in a movie by a woman, that's discrimination. That's inequality. It's D.W. Griffith's Birth of Nation only for white male guys... yeah. No.

I had little patience to begin with with this strain of thought, it's completely insufferable.

 

[ares93]

Rushbo: Listen. I really didnt mean to be the one against you guys. As i said, I completely agree. Thing is, I've been over this on so many occasions that I'm sick and tired of this subject.

However, I'd like to give you guys (and gals) creds for having this discussion on such a civilized level. As I stated earlier, I have this sixth sense when shit is about to hit the fan. It has done me good as a moderator (yeah, imagine that. I'm a mod on four different boards.) but you guys proved me wrong.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Rushbo: Listen. I really didnt mean to be the one against you guys. As i said, I completely agree. Thing is, I've been over this on so many occasions that I'm sick and tired of this subject.

However, I'd like to give you guys (and gals) creds for having this discussion on such a civilized level. As I stated earlier, I have this sixth sense when shit is about to hit the fan. It has done me good as a moderator (yeah, imagine that. I'm a mod on four different boards.) but you guys proved me wrong.

No, I didn't mean that I thought you were against us. I was just saying....

 

[Rush Limborg]

Here's something to get us BACK ON TOPIC:

I'd say this pic captures quite nicely the "balance" I'd described earlier, between Ezri's vulnerability and her dignity. Sweet, lovable, endearing...and yet, she does have an inner strength, which she's only beginning to discover.

 

[Red Ranger]

I'm not going to wade through the previous pages of dissertation. I will say I'm not a big fan of Ezri, although there is one moment I really liked her. More on that later.

She is obviously different from Jadzia in one important way . . . since she didn't prepare to be joined, she was often confused and vulnerable, which I can see would be appealing to some. But frankly, I much preferred the confident, worldly, slightly off-beat Jadzia to Ezri. The fact Jadzia had fun hanging out with the greedy, misogynistic Ferengi always cracked me up.

Now, in the ep where Worf kills Gowron, Ezri makes the observation that the Klingon Empire is dying and has been run by too many corrupt leaders, and that Gowron was just the latest of many such leaders. If they had shown her to be more insightful like this on a more regular basis, I would've liked her better. Unfortunately, she was a written as too young, naive, and goofy for my taste.

Once again, I still prefer Jadzia, and wish we had seen one more season of her. There were still other depths to her character to plumb. Hell, having Jadzia come to the same conclusion as Ezri, despite her respect for Klingon culture and mores, would have been a fascinating character change for her.

Maybe Ezri's character foibles would've made more sense if she were the first Trill to receive a young symbiont -- the first joining, that is. That would be an interesting character.

 

[Thestral]

Mmm... leave the discussion for a couple days, and look what happens.

Overall, the Iguana speaks both truth and wisdom, and I pretty much agree with Kegg.

It's maddening how she treats it like a game, spinning him--and, coincidently, Quark...

Leaving aside Bashir and Worf for the moment, Quark's entire culture is built around greed and exploitation, so you could take it as a sign of respect. Assuming of course she ever intended to "spin him around her finger" and wasn't just pursuing a flirtatious friendship (which again, for an explicitly misogynist culture...)

In "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." she admits to having dinner (the exact details escape me--I think that's what it was) with Captain Boday--while she's dating Worf. And in that same ep...she basically "catches up" (in a sensual manner) with a Risan girfriend of Curzon's. Can you blame Worf for getting set off at that?

Yeah... that same episode also featured Worf becoming a terrorist for an hour or so for the lulz, so... besides which, what's wrong with having dinner with a lover from before Worf's time if it doesn't lead to anything?

Interesting point you bring up here. We have really really good characters like Quark and Odo but no ugly women. Ever. Ever in the history of main cast characters. The men you mention aren't worth considering because they were all good looking men. You just aren't attracted to them but that doesn't mean they aren't attractive. I can't think of one female series lead who wasn't a belter, in DS9 or any other series.

Kate Pulaski? Although for an older woman...

Could not figure out the source of Garak's claustrophia, did not help Nog - that was left up to Vic. I will give her credit (or rather, give Joran credit) for catching a killer though. Not better than Troi in my book.

Somebody else already mentioned this, but Dax acted properly in "It's Only a Paper Moon" - Nog was rejecting her not because of any skill or lack thereof as a counselor, but because she was Starfleet; Vic, on the other hand, was getting through to him.

I don't think you could. You were scraping the barrel there.
I can't believe you used Wedding Crashers since the two principal characters fuck their way through dozens of women from start to finish. Hardly a searing indictment of male subjugation.

Look--in Shran's defense, let me state for the record to the wolves who may be reading his post...that he is engaging in something called satire--a Modest Proposal--Demonstrating Absurdity By Being Absurd.

Jonathan Swift did worse with his Modest Proposal....

And it's embarrasing that he and I have to explain it to all....

I'm pretty sure that's fairly obvious, actually.

What you need to ask yourself is why are men generally the cannon fodder and "spear carriers."

Hell, having Jadzia come to the same conclusion as Ezri, despite her respect for Klingon culture and mores, would have been a fascinating character change for her.

Ooh, that would have been fun! Could have brought things even more full-circle too if they knew going in that Terry was leaving and wrote in a confrontation (of some sort) between Jadzia and Gowron that she loses but Worf finishes. Yeah, it would've fast-tracked the "Martok becoming Chancellor" storyline, but a better send-off for Jadzia I think, and a call-back to K'Ehleyr.

 

[Red Ranger]

I just want to add that Dax was played by two very endearing and attractive actresses. While Terry Farrell is more my type, Nicole DeBoer is certainly cute!

 

[Rush Limborg]

While I appreciate self-confidence, I'd say it's something I like to see earned. In Ezri's case, we see her confidence in herself build up over the season--again, there is her inner combination of vulnerability and dignity, but also, from the end of "Afterimage" on, she begins to really believe in herself.

As for worldly and off-beat...well, as I said, I prefer idealism--innocent idealism, a spirit of what one might call "purity". As Julian once described her, Ezri is "an old soul...and yet so young at heart".

Frankly, it's more believable that Ezri would point out the corruption in the Empire than if Jadzia were to--precicely because of her sense of "purity", her idealism.

Jadzia is more "practical", accepting the dirt and grime--and even finding the fun in it. While I can respect that--and such a woman, as a friend, can help you get through the tough times with a positive attitude--still, it's not exactly a "romantic" quality. Jadzia's more of a "buddy", or "big sister", as opposed to a "partner" in life.

The thing is...innocence and idealism--purity--I would say gives women like Ezri a certain quality that makes some almost "look up" to them--a "pedestel", if you will. Is she perfect? Not at all...but her desire to be true to herself is something of an inspiration to those who like her.

Perhaps that is a major reason why so many of us like Ezri--if not, indeed, the reason.




Here's an interesting analogy, to help illustrate my point. Don't "snip" this, detractors--hear me out:

I recall--and I realize this may be awkward--but I recall last year's The Bachelor (my mother had it on in the living room--don't blame me! ). Because I had nothing better to do, I watched it with Mother, and what I remember from the finale was most interesting....

In the end, the guy had to choose between two girls, or something. Mother really loved one of them (I think that girl became the next Bachelorette), feeling the other one was "all right, but...".

The guy chose the second one--who, though likeable, was a bit more "down-to-earth"--over the very sweet, endearing, lovable first girl. Why? Basically because she was too good for him. To be specific, he said something about how he couldn't "be himself" around the first girl--that he had to "put on an act" for her.

I basically just shook my head and muttered, "Yeah? What's that say about what 'yourself' is, mister? Maybe your having to 'put on an act' is just your subcounciously seeing the need to clean up your act for someone as pure and innocent as her!"

(Yeah...I know. I was getting too involved--but to my credit, I'd only seen that one ep in the show, really....)

Mom agreed, of course.*


Now, don't worry--I am not, under any circumstances whatsoever, implying that I think guys who prefer "worldly" girls are slime--at all! I've debated some who prefer "down to earth" women--and I understand their reasoning. (Still...it's worth noting that that Bachelor guy made the sweet, "pure" girl a finalist--and then dumped her....)


My point is this: to each his own--but for me, I am quite frankly convinced that "innocence" in others, amid the darkness of the world, is an inspiration, a sign that one can hold true to one's integrity, and morality--and in the case of a partner, she can become something of a conscience, to inspire one to live a better life--in order to effectively be "worthy" of her.



(Sheesh...in bringing up The Bachelor,I almost sound "chickified". I'd better take a dive in the Captain Robau thread when this post is over....)




*(BTW: It would seem my fears were realized. Some months later, as The Bachelorette was running, we saw the relationship between the second girl and the guy falling apart in some "specials" in the show, where the host interviews the couple. I see the guy acting like an arrogant, obnoxious, you're-just-whining JERK! (And that's putting it mildly...but I'm not one to curse.)

I know...I talk more about The Bachelor, I might end up questioning my own masculinity. I think I'll take a dive in the Captain Robau thread, right now....)

 

[iguana_tonante]

Jadzia Dax liked him and wanted to be friends with him, but she didn't want a relationship. She's entitled to her choice, you know.

And I WOULD agree, sir (), if it had not been for the many moments where Jadzia's actions seemed geared to keep the game going.

Indeed--Ezri confirmed all this when she revealed:

Ezri: She knew how to handle it--actually, she quite enjoyed it....

Julian: Really.

Ezri: You didn't know?

Julian: Well, I always suspected it.

Ezri: You can be very charming.... You want to know something? If Worf hadn't come along, it would've been you.

Frankly, Julian's reaction strikes me as something like my attitude towards the whole thing.

As far as the good doctor's concerned, Jadzia had been playing him with the possibility of a relationship--but she never told him. Thus, he eventually gave up--leaving room for Worf.

And then he finds out she had wanted him to continue, and that she would have given in to him had he stuck with it.

Yeah, thanks for telling him, Jadzia.

No. Read what you've typed. Erzi said Jadzia appreciated Bashir's interest, that a part of her liked him, and that with the right circumstances (which is, if she hadn't fallen madly in love with another man), those feelings would have grown into something more. I don't know you, but I don't find anything wrong with that. Yeah, sucks to arrive second in matters of love and science, but don't tell me those are the sentiments of a malicious seductress intent on ripping his heart out and pooping in the wound.

Not from the women in the audience--and not from guys with a sense of honor about interacting with women. Playing a game where you tease her to make her interested, and then constantly bash her hopes, and then encourage her again--being, in short, a constant deliberate heartbreaker--

Which is not even close to the situation between Bashir and Jadzia. Jumping from hyperbole to hyperbole, you have completely lost your footing in how was actually presented the relationship.

That is NOT "smooth". It is cruel and heartless--not to mention dishonest. Indeed, it is often referred to as "treating women like a piece of meat", or "sexism", or "male chauvinism".

Yeah, and it's rampant in our society. Or haven't you noticed? You seem preternaturally perceptive when it comes to the humiliating meaning of a left-shoulder shrug of Jadzia in the second half of episode 14 during season 5, but seem absurdly oblivious to what happens in the real world.

But when a woman does it--oh, she's just "making her own choices", or "being a free spirit", or something similar.

Now that's just bullshit, and I hope you know it.

You're not worth ranting over, sir.

But apparently you are not above being purposefully annoying and preposterously snotty. I'm not interested in that. But if you get your jollies on creating feuds with random names on a message board, be my guest.

Look--in Shran's defense, let me state for the record to the wolves who may be reading his post...that he is engaging in something called satire--a Modest Proposal--Demonstrating Absurdity By Being Absurd.

Jonathan Swift did worse with his Modest Proposal....

And it's embarrasing that he and I have to explain it to all....

Stop being so fucking condescending. It's tiring, doesn't add anything to the discussion, and it's just embarrassing to see you behave like this.

Because I had nothing better to do, I watched it with Mother (...)

Mother really loved one of them (...)

Wait, you call your own mother "Mother" to her face?

 

[Kegg]

Look--in Shran's defense, let me state for the record to the wolves who may be reading his post...that he is engaging in something called satire--a Modest Proposal--Demonstrating Absurdity By Being Absurd.

Jonathan Swift did worse with his Modest Proposal....

And it's embarrasing that he and I have to explain it to all....

You want to know why Swift's satire was sort of punchy?

Mass death.

Let's try that again.

Mass death.

One million people died in the Great Famine here in Ireland and millions more emigrated, it's one of the most significant periods of depopulation in this country and also one defined by, you know, much criticism of the incompetence, complaceny and disinterest of the British authorities in the problem.

So if Swift was a little biting, he was so because of - get this - mass death. This is sort of a serious topic and in no way can his satire be considered 'worse' because the subject was commesurably greater. You don't get to say 'oh, but Swift was taking it further then us' because are over one million of my countrymen in the ground and he was talking about that.

Mass death does segue nicely into my next point. White males have their narratives privilged and validated by American media on an international level; many of them are born into levels of prosperity that far surpass those in the poorest and most benighted places of the world. I am fortunate enough to live in a reasonably prosperous nation, even if it is one facing difficulties, but I am aware that in being an English speaking white man from a reasonably solid financial background I was accorded opportunities and media narratives almost from birth that many others who do not have these would not get in the extent I have.

The essential problem of trying to accuse media in general of an anti-man bias is ignoring the extent to which it accomodates this male perspective to excess of any other... in other words, if against man, who is it for?

The perpetual male adolescent that Quentin Tarantino and Michael Bay alike tapped into makes a lot of money and a lot of male oriented stuff.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I would say, then, that tolerance of the whole thing is basically either a pathetic case of mass submission to political correctness...or else masochism.

Yeah, and it's rampant in our society. Or haven't you noticed?

Which is a big problem in our society, I'd say.

Because I had nothing better to do, I watched it with Mother (...)

Mother really loved one of them (...)

Wait, you call your own mother "Mother" to her face?

Technically, no--but I'm not sure what you're point is....

But apparently you are not above being purposefully annoying and preposterously snotty. I'm not interested in that. But if you get your jollies on creating feuds with random names on a message board, be my guest.

...Stop being so fucking condescending. It's tiring, doesn't add anything to the discussion, and it's just embarrassing to see you behave like this.

*sigh* Please, folks, can we keep this from becoming personal? The LAST thing we want is for the mods to close down this thread for something completely off topic.

This thread is not about me or iguana_tonante. This is about why people like Ezri or not.

Finally...if my being here, or the way I have worded my points, has led to this...I strongly apologize.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

Guys...the way I see it, all concerned need to simmer the heck down.

I'm really not liking the tone I'm seeing here in this last page or so of posts very much.

The debate is great - interesting discussion! Please continue that part. But let's try to be a bit less sarcastic toward each other, m'kay?

Thanks so much!

 

[Rush Limborg]

^ PKTrekGirl/CindyLouWho, thank you--from the bottom of my heart.

(For the record, I call my mother "Mom"...but I thought that was too personal to use here. *sigh*)

Now...back on topic.

 

[Thestral]

You want to know why Swift's satire was sort of punchy?

Mass death.

Let's try that again.

Mass death.

One million people died in the Great Famine here in Ireland and millions more emigrated, it's one of the most significant periods of depopulation in this country and also one defined by, you know, much criticism of the incompetence, complaceny and disinterest of the British authorities in the problem.

For future reference - perhaps Swift was not the best reference he could have used in arguing with an Irishman, yes?

While I appreciate self-confidence, I'd say it's something I like to see earned. In Ezri's case, we see her confidence in herself build up over the season--again, there is her inner combination of vulnerability and dignity, but also, from the end of "Afterimage" on, she begins to really believe in herself.

Well that's just because we didn't see Jadzia until she'd already been successfully joined after years of training as an initiate and had integrated the memories and experiences of her previous lifetimes. We get precious few hints of pre-Dax Jadzia (and Jadzia in Invasive Procedures was in a pretty dire situation), but what we do get indicates that she was studious, dedicated, and also shy, and had her confidence seriously shaken by Curzon's flunking her. So she probably would have been more like Zee was pre-Joining; in fact, I'd say most Joined Trill, by the time they're Joined, have already earned their confidence; we just didn't see the process.

Jadzia is more "practical", accepting the dirt and grime--and even finding the fun in it. While I can respect that--and such a woman, as a friend, can help you get through the tough times with a positive attitude--still, it's not exactly a "romantic" quality. Jadzia's more of a "buddy", or "big sister", as opposed to a "partner" in life.

Well... "big sister/buddy" is a step up from "man-eating seductress" at least. But that's pretty subjective.

The thing is...innocence and idealism--purity--I would say gives women like Ezri a certain quality that makes some almost "look up" to them--a "pedestel", if you will. Is she perfect? Not at all...but her desire to be true to herself is something of an inspiration to those who like her.

Perhaps that is a major reason why so many of us like Ezri--if not, indeed, the reason.

My point is this: to each his own--but for me, I am quite frankly convinced that "innocence" in others, amid the darkness of the world, is an inspiration, a sign that one can hold true to one's integrity, and morality--and in the case of a partner, she can become something of a conscience, to inspire one to live a better life--in order to effectively be "worthy" of her.

Will not try to analyze... will not try to analyze... will not...

^I would say, then, that tolerance of the whole thing is basically either a pathetic case of mass submission to political correctness...or else masochism.

Eh?

The debate is great - interesting discussion! Please continue that part. But let's try to be a bit less sarcastic toward each other, m'kay?

Thanks so much!

Sorry, I'm used to the freewheeling place that shall not be named.

^ PKTrekGirl/CindyLouWho, thank you--from the bottom of my heart.

(For the record, I call my mother "Mom"...but I thought that was too personal to use here. *sigh*)

Now...back on topic.

I think it's fair to say the topic has... shifted.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ Possibly. But I'm not concerned at all about the direction of the topic. I've never been one to be all hard-assed about a narrow interpretation of 'on topic'. Some of the best discussions we have had in the forum over the years have been 'evolved' from a related (or even unrelated ) original topic.

You guys are doing great, for the most part - just thought I'd slide in my little reminder before we ventured too far into 'not so great'.

 

[Rush Limborg]

You want to know why Swift's satire was sort of punchy?

Mass death.

Let's try that again.

Mass death.

One million people died in the Great Famine here in Ireland and millions more emigrated, it's one of the most significant periods of depopulation in this country and also one defined by, you know, much criticism of the incompetence, complaceny and disinterest of the British authorities in the problem.

For future reference - perhaps Swift was not the best reference he could have used in arguing with an Irishman, yes?

I have an Irish background myself, so...

While I appreciate self-confidence, I'd say it's something I like to see earned. In Ezri's case, we see her confidence in herself build up over the season--again, there is her inner combination of vulnerability and dignity, but also, from the end of "Afterimage" on, she begins to really believe in herself.

Well that's just because we didn't see Jadzia until she'd already been successfully joined after years of training as an initiate and had integrated the memories and experiences of her previous lifetimes. We get precious few hints of pre-Dax Jadzia (and Jadzia in Invasive Procedures was in a pretty dire situation), but what we do get indicates that she was studious, dedicated, and also shy, and had her confidence seriously shaken by Curzon's flunking her. So she probably would have been more like Zee was pre-Joining; in fact, I'd say most Joined Trill, by the time they're Joined, have already earned their confidence; we just didn't see the process.

Still, I think Nerys was on to something when referring to Jadzia Dax as a "Curzon Clone". Perhaps her shaken confidence resulted in her throwing herself into her past hosts.

Still...recall that Ezri's initial instability was a direct result of the fact that she hadn't planned to be joined, and hadn't gone through any of the training that Jadzia did.

I'm...not entirely sure where you saw the "shy" element, though....

Well... "big sister/buddy" is a step up from "man-eating seductress" at least. But that's pretty subjective.

At her best, she's a "big sister/buddy". At her worst, she's a "man-eating seductress". Frankly, she became a lot more likeable after marrying Worf. Again, that toned her down.

Will not try to analyze... will not try to analyze... will not...

It's just my personal philosophy--my personal standard, and the concepts behind it.

Eh?

Don't ask. I'll get set off again about the "feminist takeover" of our culture--and that'll just start the "unleasing" all over again....

The debate is great - interesting discussion! Please continue that part. But let's try to be a bit less sarcastic toward each other, m'kay?

Thanks so much!

Sorry, I'm used to the freewheeling place that shall not be named.

Yep. It's a poison that, once it has entered our souls, is very hard to get out.

(Got me into trouble with a certain Trek XI mod like you wouldn't believe....)

^ PKTrekGirl/CindyLouWho, thank you--from the bottom of my heart.

(For the record, I call my mother "Mom"...but I thought that was too personal to use here. *sigh*)

Now...back on topic.

I think it's fair to say the topic has... shifted.

 

[Thestral]

For future reference - perhaps Swift was not the best reference he could have used in arguing with an Irishman, yes?

I have an Irish background myself, so...

No doubt; I'm from Appalachia, so I definitely do too. But that's not really the same as being from the place, no? But that's a minor tangent.

Still, I think Nerys was on to something when referring to Jadzia Dax as a "Curzon Clone". Perhaps her shaken confidence resulted in her throwing herself into her past hosts.

A couple thoughts here.

My own personal explanation for the "increasing Curzon-ness" of Jadzia is that it wasn't so much Curzon taking over as Jadzia more fully integrating those aspects of her personality and past lives. I'm not sure if the chronology entirely matches up, but I'm near-positive Jadzia's transition into more of an action/command role happened post-Facets, when she confronted Curzon about his role in her life and his feelings for her. Recall he didn't want to reintegrate. If she'd been avoiding/suppressing the more Curzon aspects of her lives and experience, even subconsciously, then more fully integrating them would make her seem more Curzon-esque. Said character development also definitely happens post-Blood Oath, when Jadzia first confronted head-on and took part in Curzon's legacy. The situation would not be entirely dissimilar, I think, to Ezri and Joran; Curzon never knew about him and Jadzia stayed away from him like the plague - Ezri was the first to not only seek him out within herself but begin integrating him.

Now, the shaken confidence I was alluding to happened pre-Joining (although its effects were still being felt much later, if my above theory is correct), but she did after all work through it and come back - and succeed as the only Initiate ever to be chosen for Joining after washing out once.

Still...recall that Ezri's initial instability was a direct result of the fact that she hadn't planned to be joined, and hadn't gone through any of the training that Jadzia did.

I'm...not entirely sure where you saw the "shy" element, though....

Right... which is what I was saying about Ezri - we see her instability because she wasn't trained or prepared like Jadzia was.

Jadzia's pre-joining shyness was established in Invasive Procedures, according to Memory Alpha. It's been a long time since I've seen it, Facets, or Playing God though.[/QUOTE]

At her best, she's a "big sister/buddy". At her worst, she's a "man-eating seductress". Frankly, she became a lot more likeable after marrying Worf. Again, that toned her down.

Piffle. Jadzia's best scenes were definitely pre-marriage, sorry. Like the conversation with the Jem'Hadar in To the Death. "... so let me get this straight: No sleep. No food. No women. No wonder you're so angry. After thirty or forty years of that I'd be angry too." (Thank you Memory Alpha!)

Don't ask. I'll get set off again about the "feminist takeover" of our culture--and that'll just start the "unleasing" all over again....

Yeah, but... your comment didn't even make sense. Like... basic reading comprehension fail on my part, what were you trying to say?

I think it's fair to say the topic has... shifted.

 

[Rush Limborg]

A couple thoughts here.

My own personal explanation for the "increasing Curzon-ness" of Jadzia is that it wasn't so much Curzon taking over as Jadzia more fully integrating those aspects of her personality and past lives. I'm not sure if the chronology entirely matches up, but I'm near-positive Jadzia's transition into more of an action/command role happened post-Facets, when she confronted Curzon about his role in her life and his feelings for her. Recall he didn't want to reintegrate. If she'd been avoiding/suppressing the more Curzon aspects of her lives and experience, even subconsciously, then more fully integrating them would make her seem more Curzon-esque. Said character development also definitely happens post-Blood Oath, when Jadzia first confronted head-on and took part in Curzon's legacy. The situation would not be entirely dissimilar, I think, to Ezri and Joran; Curzon never knew about him and Jadzia stayed away from him like the plague - Ezri was the first to not only seek him out within herself but begin integrating him.

You know...I can't help but wonder if her integrating Joran was what let to her unfortunate changes of personality in the relaunch. It certainly would explain a lot....

Now, the shaken confidence I was alluding to happened pre-Joining (although its effects were still being felt much later, if my above theory is correct), but she did after all work through it and come back - and succeed as the only Initiate ever to be chosen for Joining after washing out once.

Jadzia's pre-joining shyness was established in Invasive Procedures, according to Memory Alpha. It's been a long time since I've seen it, Facets, or Playing God though.

Ah. As you say.

Frankly...Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

Piffle. Jadzia's best scenes were definitely pre-marriage, sorry. Like the conversation with the Jem'Hadar in To the Death. "... so let me get this straight: No sleep. No food. No women. No wonder you're so angry. After thirty or forty years of that I'd be angry too." (Thank you Memory Alpha!)

That kinda proved my original point. Goes to show--she practically flirts with every guy out there except for the Siskos, Odo, and O'Brien.

Drives me nuts--no, not in the "good" way.

Morn--Quark--Bashir--Boday--and now a Jem'Hadar.

Somehow...it looks like Ezri was only being half-sarcastic when she said about Jadzia, "I don't think there was anyone aboard DS9 who wasn't her lover!"

Don't ask. I'll get set off again about the "feminist takeover" of our culture--and that'll just start the "unleasing" all over again....

Yeah, but... your comment didn't even make sense. Like... basic reading comprehension fail on my part, what were you trying to say?[/QUOTE]

I REFUSE to submit to temptation!

 

[iguana_tonante]

^I would say, then, that tolerance of the whole thing is basically either a pathetic case of mass submission to political correctness...or else masochism.

Wut?

Don't ask. I'll get set off again about the "feminist takeover" of our culture--and that'll just start the "unleasing" all over again....

Indeed, it is often referred to as "treating women like a piece of meat", or "sexism", or "male chauvinism".

Yeah, and it's rampant in our society. Or haven't you noticed?

Which is a big problem in our society, I'd say.

I'm not sure I understand you, but it seems to me you are arguing a contradiction here: first you talk about a "feminist takeover" of our culture (yeah, let me do it: ), but then you say that "male chauvinism" is a big problem. Which one is true?

Wait, you call your own mother "Mother" to her face?

Technically, no--but I'm not sure what you're point is....

Just curious. I was trying to avoid imagining you dressed in an argyle sweater coming straight out of the 50s...

Frankly...Jadzia sans Curzon is a heck of a lot more likeable to me than with him. I'd say Curzon's hard-hitting womanizing channeled itself into Jadzia being such a flirt....

That kinda proved my original point. Goes to show--she practically flirts with every guy out there except for the Siskos, Odo, and O'Brien.

Drives me nuts--no, not in the "good" way.

Morn--Quark--Bashir--Boday--and now a Jem'Hadar.

Somehow...it looks like Ezri was only being half-sarcastic when she said about Jadzia, "I don't think there was anyone aboard DS9 who wasn't her lover!"

I'm sorry to say, but if you were trying to explain that your dislike of Jadzia was based on something more than puritan, prudish attitudes about women and sexuality, I think you are failing here.