My feelings towards Ezri was that she was that she was still in transition from Ezri Tigan to Ezri Dax for most of the seventh season and would have become a kick-ass character during an eighth season...
Why do People like Ezri?
- Thread starter TheLobes
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*does happy dance* Rush is here! Rush is here! As usual, I totally disagree with him on Ezri, but by god, Rush is here defending his gal! 
Heh, I always appreciate someone who can make well-reasoned arguments, even if I don't agree with them.
Good to have you here, man.
Heh, I always appreciate someone who can make well-reasoned arguments, even if I don't agree with them.Good to have you here, man.
I imagine most people like Ezri for the same reason fans of Seven of Nine like her, cause she is passably attractive and can deliver lines occasionally.
^*sigh* After all the explanations I and others have given....
Exactly. Right on, Nerys!
Look, folks--we have to stop thinking of the term "femininity" as sexist. It does not, by any means, indicate "inferiority" or such. It is not a code term for "gender inequality".
Though Ezri is clearly more "feminine" than Jadzia, nowhere does that indicate inferiority or "weakness". Indeed, it can easily be argued that Ezri is stronger than Jadzia in some areas.
While it's doubtful that Ezri could, say, beat Jadzia in a fight, Ezri nonetheless has a certain sensibility about her, channeled from her innocent idealism, which helps her see things others have been all but blinded to, but is painfully obvious to her.
Case in point:
She is able to step back and question what we take for granted--something Jadzia rarely, if ever, did. Jadzia's mind is as a scientist and tactician--hard-core, "practical", taking what she's given and finding the "fun" in it.
Ezri's mind is is as a phycologist and, indeed, philosopher. She isn't content with reality as it is, and strives to make it better--and encourages others, such as Worf, to do the same.
As it were...that helps explain why she goes through such soul-searching at the end of "Prodigal Daughter". She sees her family fall apart in front of her...and she struggles with herself, saying, "Where did it all go wrong? Was it something I didn't do? Was it...was it my fault, because I didn't do enough?"
Again, it is through building on what we see, in a manner which reconciles the "problems" and contradictions within the character.
Good to be here.
Exactly. Right on, Nerys!
Look, folks--we have to stop thinking of the term "femininity" as sexist. It does not, by any means, indicate "inferiority" or such. It is not a code term for "gender inequality".
Though Ezri is clearly more "feminine" than Jadzia, nowhere does that indicate inferiority or "weakness". Indeed, it can easily be argued that Ezri is stronger than Jadzia in some areas.
While it's doubtful that Ezri could, say, beat Jadzia in a fight, Ezri nonetheless has a certain sensibility about her, channeled from her innocent idealism, which helps her see things others have been all but blinded to, but is painfully obvious to her.
Case in point:
She is able to step back and question what we take for granted--something Jadzia rarely, if ever, did. Jadzia's mind is as a scientist and tactician--hard-core, "practical", taking what she's given and finding the "fun" in it.
Ezri's mind is is as a phycologist and, indeed, philosopher. She isn't content with reality as it is, and strives to make it better--and encourages others, such as Worf, to do the same.
As it were...that helps explain why she goes through such soul-searching at the end of "Prodigal Daughter". She sees her family fall apart in front of her...and she struggles with herself, saying, "Where did it all go wrong? Was it something I didn't do? Was it...was it my fault, because I didn't do enough?"
Again, it is through building on what we see, in a manner which reconciles the "problems" and contradictions within the character.
*does happy dance* Rush is here! Rush is here! As usual, I totally disagree with him on Ezri, but by god, Rush is here defending his gal!
Good to have you here, man.
Good to be here.
^ Don't get me wrong. I like Ezri.
^Okay....
And of course, it doesn't hurt that she's a very beautiful young lady, too.
My focus, though, is that she also has a great deal of internal beauty. External beauty attracts...internal beauty grips and holds.
There's no denying that Jadzia and Seven and T'Pol are physically beautiful. But the coldness--and in Jadzia's case, the wildness--makes them less likely to attract those like me.
And of course, it doesn't hurt that she's a very beautiful young lady, too.
My focus, though, is that she also has a great deal of internal beauty. External beauty attracts...internal beauty grips and holds.
There's no denying that Jadzia and Seven and T'Pol are physically beautiful. But the coldness--and in Jadzia's case, the wildness--makes them less likely to attract those like me.
Yeah, I'd have to admit that Ezri is more my type than any of those others you listed. She was also a much better fit for Bashir than Jadzia ever was.
See this is my real problem with a lot of what youre saying. It seems like a lot of people defend seven of nine, and like her as a character, because they are attracted to her. It seems like youre giving Ezri and lot of slack because shes the sort of girl youre into. A lot of your arguments, and those of others, speculate on all these facets of Ezri's character that we never really see, and they all seem to enhance your image of her as an ideal woman.
No offence, mate. But how the hell does that make it wrong? So she's his type of gal. Frankly she's my type too. Who cares?
I dont want to sound like I'm defending my mate over here. I'm not gonna take sides. But we saw a helluva lot of Ezri in the last season. Then you can also add the books. You can make a pretty darn accurate profile of how a person is with that level of information.
Well, he said in his own words he was 'filling in the blanks'. I think it matters because youre essentially just doing the writers jobs for them, this is the sort of thing which leads to characters like Seven of Nine, using a actresses attractiveness to hide the defeciencies of her character. Ive never read the books, theyre secondary to the series. Im not saying theyre bad, Im just saying you should be able to look at the series as a whole without the books.
Yeah, you have a good point there. I'll give you that. Missed that about "filling in the blanks". But his statement aside, i find myself agreeing with most of what he says about Ezri. so even if he's "extrapolating", as he said, he's not far off. In fact, in my opinion, he pretty accurate.
While I don't like Ezri character, I do think that Nicole de Boer is freakin' adorable. She shouldn't really try to do "smoldering" or "femme fatale" though. It doesn't really suit her.
Now Nana Visitor as Intendant Kira on the other hand ...
But I digress ... really, I think I might have warmed to Ezri if she had been on more than a season.
Now Nana Visitor as Intendant Kira on the other hand ...
But I digress ... really, I think I might have warmed to Ezri if she had been on more than a season.
Seven and T'Pol are certainly attractive. I also defend those characters because I like them. But, that's not because I find them attractive. I do like the characters themselves, even if they do have a lot problems (character-wise) that I don't see in Ezri.
After all, I like the characters of Scotty, O'Brien, and Archer as well, but I don't find any of them remotely attractive.
In fact, this is what I see as a problem with a lot (not all, but a lot) of Jadzia supporters. They're willing to look beyond her arrogance and manipulating, superficial nature because they are attracted to her.
I clicked on the links, but that's it. You're using "Let He Who is Without Sin..." as an argument?
The only good thing to come from that ep is Worf's story about soccer, and even that isn't necessary to explain his "super-stoic-Klingon-ness."If so, it didn't have to do with her treatment of men in general.
Why do you put "equality" in quotes?
I'm sure you can provide plenty of examples where Dax did this, yes?
For me at least, the books have become almost as important for Zee's character, since they've given her so much more to do.
I tend to agree, just not sure if I have too much of a problem with it. The way that people have been phrasing their posts in this thread is interesting. Whether it is Ezri or Jadzia being criticized (or defended), some folks here do seem to be more describing the type of woman that they'd love to be dating (or in other cases what type of woman perhaps has crushed them like a bug!), rather than simply discussing a Trek character. It's all good for me, though- just interesting!
And the idea that additional richness for the character not fleshed out in aired episodes was created by extrapolations by individual viewers reminds me a bit of Geordi creating an ideal version of Leah Brahms on the holodeck. Just a bit!
And the idea that additional richness for the character not fleshed out in aired episodes was created by extrapolations by individual viewers reminds me a bit of Geordi creating an ideal version of Leah Brahms on the holodeck. Just a bit!
FWIW, since it's highly unlikely filmed Trek will revisit DS9 characters, let alone in this timeline, I figure why not let the tie-in lit run with them and treat those stories as semi-official? For those who care about them anyway, YMMV.
I can see why they would become important, but I think its necessary to respect that these books were not written by the team responsible for the TV series. They didnt have the input of actors, directors or designers. Essentially they are just highly developed fanfic, and thats okay, but I think its important to seperate one from the other.
Well, Ive never seen Enterprise, so i cant comment on Archer (he is pretty attractive though), but Scotty and O'Brien are well formed characters who we have a chance to get to know throughout the development of their respective series.
I dont even know how you can compare O'Brien to Ezri, he was in the series (lets just discount TNG for the sake of argument) for two years before the Dominion even showed up, and five years before the Dominion War was finally started. Over that time we get to know him slowly, what makes him tick, what makes him angry, what his principles are. We get to see him develop a friendship which was not immediately obvious, and which took time for the writers to work out. We get too know what his life is normally like. The slow buildup to the war adds depth, because we already know this character before everything hits the fan (are we allowed the swear on these forums?). This gives the final story room to expand around him, and we dont need to constantly check up on who he is and what he feels because its already been established and we are well aware of the character. With Ezri it was the exact opposite.
I think the difference with the Jadzia fans is that they at least have six years of Jadzia to look back on, granted she did change considerably during that time. However, I think there is a difference in overlooking a flaw in the character due to personal attraction, and just projecting things which we never see because they are what we wish the character to be. Im didnt like Jadzia much either, but at least Im pretty sure of her character because there was plently of time to get to know her. I cant say that about Ezri.
*reads 4 pages in a hurry*
Hey, nice job, Rush! Good to see you.
Hmm...this seems to have turned into a Jadzia-bashing fest. I actually like Jadzia more than Ezri so here goes...
Jadzia's a flirt. No way around it. But she's not (interesting that I keep referring to them as if they both exist right now...hmm...) as much of a man-user as a lot of you seem to think. Personally, I think YOU are filling in the blanks as much if not more than Rushbo is. (No offense, Rush, I don't think there's anything wrong with filling in the blanks.) Give me some specific examples of her turning men into playthings, please, before you make blanket statements.
The thing about filling in the blanks is there's no right or wrong answer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - if you think Nicole de Boer is beautiful, she is. If you don't, she isn't. It's a subjective thing, not a black-and-white statement of fact.
Hey, nice job, Rush! Good to see you.
Hmm...this seems to have turned into a Jadzia-bashing fest. I actually like Jadzia more than Ezri so here goes...
Jadzia's a flirt. No way around it. But she's not (interesting that I keep referring to them as if they both exist right now...hmm...) as much of a man-user as a lot of you seem to think. Personally, I think YOU are filling in the blanks as much if not more than Rushbo is. (No offense, Rush, I don't think there's anything wrong with filling in the blanks.) Give me some specific examples of her turning men into playthings, please, before you make blanket statements.
The thing about filling in the blanks is there's no right or wrong answer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - if you think Nicole de Boer is beautiful, she is. If you don't, she isn't. It's a subjective thing, not a black-and-white statement of fact.
Who are you refering to?
I clicked on the links, but that's it. You're using "Let He Who is Without Sin..." as an argument?
Seeing as how that's just the epitome of her personality, yes, I do use it. But if you want more - look at how she treats Bashir throughout the series, especially when he first meets Leeta. Or how about in The Ship, when her solution to the problem of Worf and O'Brien fighting is too insult them and then get pissed off when Sisko reprimands her for it.
Just to name a few.... Playing God (Quark even comments on it), Past Tense, Facets, Starship Down, The Ship, Looking for par'Mach in all the Wrong Places, Trials and Tribble-ations, Let He Who is Without Sin, The Reckoning
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