Suddenly I'm picturing Sid from "Toy Story".
Why didn't Janeway give the Kazon Replicator technology?
- Thread starter Guy Gardener
- Start date
They control armies, starships, planets as well as the populations and resources there on.
They have access to weapons and many dangerous materials already in abundance.
Replicators just give them access to dangerous exotic materials, and increase the speed of their production of new "just about anything" however it can be argued that the kazon don't build. They're still hooning around in ships they "stole" from the Trabe when they rose up and slaughtered their slavemasters 50 years earlier. In another 50 years they won't have ships, and 50 years after that they won't remember they had ships.
Janeway, before the Kazon started getting tetchy from her high handedness was perfectly happy with letting them keep the Array, and they would have kept it IF they had the forethought to trust the word of a very very rude woman.
Besides remember Kirk and Klingons supplying muskets on Tyree's world? He was artificially keeping the balance of power... Which isn't too different from what the Americans and Russians were doing at the time.
If she gave the same technology to everyone evenly, that's just the same crime to a huger magnitude but safer to any one species now accepting that this isn't the time to posture.
Kirk gave those guys muskets to fight with because the Klingons had already armed their enemies with the same weapons and taught them how to make them (which is why he never thought of just taking all of them away from everyone). Before that they were equal, so he was just equalizing things again.
It's a well known fact that Janeway is her own worst enemy so you're just splitting hairs Anwar.
Besides, Janeways relpicator technology was 3 times more efficient/better after the big swap meet in The Void. So after it was already established that she would sell replicator tech, the gal had tech she was willing to distribute that would put any predator a couple levels of magnitude above the Federation social evolutionarily speaking and ready to carve out an empire one day which the federation will seem in confrontation backwards before.
The Prime Directive can and should be enforced upon the Federation itself that it has to be cautious when accepting foreign technology because Trojans aside, they have to wonder if they can keep this technology away from bastards while not becoming bastards themselves.
The narrow deffinitions of the Prime Directive, as we have seen it enforced and used, is for dinky little Captains in space row boats paddling about on the frontier making sure they don't chew off too much that will drag down the entire federation in some perfect clusterfuck storm like Sisko declaring war on the Dominion or Picard needling Q... So the Federation council and their minor ancillary bodies are more than capable of hammering out trade agreements and treaties with foreign powers once they believe they have accounted for most every possible curve ball, that tech and other stuff can run back and forth with oversight. Starfleet Captains may have ambassadorial privileges but they shouldn't go around making promises their asses can't cash.
Besides, Janeways relpicator technology was 3 times more efficient/better after the big swap meet in The Void. So after it was already established that she would sell replicator tech, the gal had tech she was willing to distribute that would put any predator a couple levels of magnitude above the Federation social evolutionarily speaking and ready to carve out an empire one day which the federation will seem in confrontation backwards before.
The Prime Directive can and should be enforced upon the Federation itself that it has to be cautious when accepting foreign technology because Trojans aside, they have to wonder if they can keep this technology away from bastards while not becoming bastards themselves.
The narrow deffinitions of the Prime Directive, as we have seen it enforced and used, is for dinky little Captains in space row boats paddling about on the frontier making sure they don't chew off too much that will drag down the entire federation in some perfect clusterfuck storm like Sisko declaring war on the Dominion or Picard needling Q... So the Federation council and their minor ancillary bodies are more than capable of hammering out trade agreements and treaties with foreign powers once they believe they have accounted for most every possible curve ball, that tech and other stuff can run back and forth with oversight. Starfleet Captains may have ambassadorial privileges but they shouldn't go around making promises their asses can't cash.
I thought we were talking about the Kazon, not the Romulans. The Kazon couldn't even aquire water from other members of their own race.
In honesty, holographic technology can definitely be used to produce deadly results (depending on how it's programmed).
The original intention behind the Hirogen's plans was to use it so they can confine themselves to hunting holograms that would sate their hunting instincts/desire.
The replicator on the other hand is a bit different.
Once you replicate a weapon, there is no restriction on where you can use it (provided of course it's immune to dampening field effects), plus not to mention having an inexhaustible source of materials (if you can maintain the power).
The holodecks would be severely limited in range if used in deep space to produce effects powerful enough to make a difference.
And they draw a lot of power.
Still, both techs can be used to produce deadly results.
I think what Janeway did in case of the Hirogen was that she recognized the Hirogen's desire (the alpha's) for change and sought to give the tech to him.
In essence though, the Federation was effectively on par with the Hirogen (not at first though, because once Voyager got tactical upgrades from Earth, they were able to pose a serious threat to Hirogen vessels), so if the PD was restricted to non-warp cultures, well... at least in this case, I think the writers went along with that idea if anything else... though I do agree the PD extends to pre and post-warp cultures.
The original intention behind the Hirogen's plans was to use it so they can confine themselves to hunting holograms that would sate their hunting instincts/desire.
The replicator on the other hand is a bit different.
Once you replicate a weapon, there is no restriction on where you can use it (provided of course it's immune to dampening field effects), plus not to mention having an inexhaustible source of materials (if you can maintain the power).
The holodecks would be severely limited in range if used in deep space to produce effects powerful enough to make a difference.
And they draw a lot of power.
Still, both techs can be used to produce deadly results.
I think what Janeway did in case of the Hirogen was that she recognized the Hirogen's desire (the alpha's) for change and sought to give the tech to him.
In essence though, the Federation was effectively on par with the Hirogen (not at first though, because once Voyager got tactical upgrades from Earth, they were able to pose a serious threat to Hirogen vessels), so if the PD was restricted to non-warp cultures, well... at least in this case, I think the writers went along with that idea if anything else... though I do agree the PD extends to pre and post-warp cultures.
Sure they could.
They just needed a constant supply.
It was the consistency that was the problem.
They needed to renegotiate every other week as the sects rose and fell and changed hands. Which means that they needed to find primary, secondary and tertiary suppliers to make sure that they were not held Ransom because they were living on a dead world with no water but rich and valuable cormaline deposits which everyone wanted and was easily far more valuable than water, that after they got enough water to survive, then they would/could ask for the moon.
Caretaker killed the water remember.
It's just like if they had to mine in space that they would need air (and water, not that their isn't "usable" ice in space or with the right technology you can't make air from ice if I believe my science fiction novels set in the not to distant future.).
There had been a change in power. The new Alpha was so violently opposed to Holotech that he murdered his own Alpha. Janeway was so obnoxious that she still forced the gift onto this guy who really wasn't interested but just wanted to get out of dodge.
Obviously "that guy" didn't stay in power for too long.
but if Saddam had paid China half up front, the other half on delivery for a few cold war atomic weapons surplus before he lost control, but the weapons arrived after the new government took office, would the new rulers of Iraq keep the a-bombs and would they honour the contract by making the final payment?
antiquityscion
Commander
I always assumed Janeway was afraid the Kazon would either create weapons with replicators, or backwards engineer it for weapons, transporter technology, etc, and that would endanger teh Delta Quadrant and her crew.
A gut, if not a snap decision from knowing these people for 40 seconds?
They asked for the technology as soon as they saw the water tank materialize. Janeway replied that the tech was integrated into her ships systems which was a lie, but then Neelix started shooting the place up and then stole one of their slaves.
Neelix seemed like the one operating in bad faith here, but he became a super trusted ally.
They asked for the technology as soon as they saw the water tank materialize. Janeway replied that the tech was integrated into her ships systems which was a lie, but then Neelix started shooting the place up and then stole one of their slaves.
Neelix seemed like the one operating in bad faith here, but he became a super trusted ally.
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Were they still a nasty bunch of teenagers with Seska running the show?
Much worse.
They now were a bunch of nasty teens with a pregnant hormonal Cardassian woman.
...did I mention there's also no chocolate in the Delta Quaderent?
Not exactly.
The only Chocolate in the Delta Quadrant is living in Voyagers culinary database.
(Is that the other shoe dropping?)
She hunted and pursued Voyager for it's chocolate and that is what killed her!
DEATH BY CHOCOLATE!!
The only Chocolate in the Delta Quadrant is living in Voyagers culinary database.
(Is that the other shoe dropping?)
She hunted and pursued Voyager for it's chocolate and that is what killed her!
DEATH BY CHOCOLATE!!
It seems to me there are different "levels" to the PD.
On one hand, if the civilization is pre-warp, then any and all contact is supposed to be avoided or minimized , and interference on a technological or societal level would be strictly prohibited.
If the society is post-warp, contact is not forbidden, and a certain amount of technological exchange is permitted, but unwanted interference in their internal politics and laws, for example, would not be permitted.
Exchange of technologies is possible between warp-developed cultures, provided the technology in question does not alter the balance of power in the quadrant.
Then again, virtually any new technology given to a race that hadn't invented it yet could radically alter the balance either way.
Giving the replicator to the Kazon probably would not have ended their demands from Voyager.
They'd have to supply the tech to every other sect out there in order to keep things balanced.
But that also brings into question on what happens to 'minor races', or even the Vidians for that matter.
The Kazon were too irresponsible and the first ship to try and use the replicator ended up with all but 1 of it's crew dead.
The Hirogen (at least the Alpha who had the idea for a change) was on the right track, and Janeway saw that they could actually use the technology wisely (besides, it was actually a good compromise taking into consideration it would stop the Hirogen from torturing the crew).
On the other hand, when the Hirogen ended up using the holo-tech, they got themselves beaten and killed at every turn.
I would imagine their use of the technology from that point on would be different, will be used for something else, or not used at all.
Janeway was under different circumstances.
With the Kazon, the ship was 75 years away from the Federation (half a lifetime for Trek humans) with the prospect of the trip lasting more when cruising at lower than maximum warp velocities over time.
She was more willing to destroy her ship before she gives any part of it over to the Kazon.
Later in 'The Killing game' which was 4 years down the line and Voyager was over 10 000 Ly's closer to home.
I suppose that this was what made Janeway a bit more optimistic about their chances and was a bit more willing to compromise with technological exchange (seeing how Hirogen were at that point more advanced in most other areas) because she was able to get the ship that far.
Then again, virtually any new technology given to a race that hadn't invented it yet could radically alter the balance either way.
Giving the replicator to the Kazon probably would not have ended their demands from Voyager.
They'd have to supply the tech to every other sect out there in order to keep things balanced.
But that also brings into question on what happens to 'minor races', or even the Vidians for that matter.
The Kazon were too irresponsible and the first ship to try and use the replicator ended up with all but 1 of it's crew dead.
The Hirogen (at least the Alpha who had the idea for a change) was on the right track, and Janeway saw that they could actually use the technology wisely (besides, it was actually a good compromise taking into consideration it would stop the Hirogen from torturing the crew).
On the other hand, when the Hirogen ended up using the holo-tech, they got themselves beaten and killed at every turn.
I would imagine their use of the technology from that point on would be different, will be used for something else, or not used at all.
Janeway was under different circumstances.
With the Kazon, the ship was 75 years away from the Federation (half a lifetime for Trek humans) with the prospect of the trip lasting more when cruising at lower than maximum warp velocities over time.
She was more willing to destroy her ship before she gives any part of it over to the Kazon.
Later in 'The Killing game' which was 4 years down the line and Voyager was over 10 000 Ly's closer to home.
I suppose that this was what made Janeway a bit more optimistic about their chances and was a bit more willing to compromise with technological exchange (seeing how Hirogen were at that point more advanced in most other areas) because she was able to get the ship that far.
What about Alliances?
Janeway was perfectly willing to enter a mutual defence pact with several Kazon Sects, Seska and the Trabe.
This doesn't seem illegal, but it does say that Janeway thought that the kazon afforded, even Kullah and Seska, with a Modicum of trust accepting that this motley crew had the potential to be friends after they'd each saved the others ass a couple times.
Which is no different form the baby steps between the Klingons and the Federation and the current movements between the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire, which is all just metaphor for Russia and America.
Janeway was perfectly willing to enter a mutual defence pact with several Kazon Sects, Seska and the Trabe.
This doesn't seem illegal, but it does say that Janeway thought that the kazon afforded, even Kullah and Seska, with a Modicum of trust accepting that this motley crew had the potential to be friends after they'd each saved the others ass a couple times.
Which is no different form the baby steps between the Klingons and the Federation and the current movements between the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire, which is all just metaphor for Russia and America.
You fix their hair and suddenly the Borg don't think they're so unassimilatable any-more.
SEE!
Prime Directive!
Mousse is haircare technology thousands of years away from being invented by the Kazon all by themselves which would be a monumental disruption to their development as a species.
SEE!
Prime Directive!
Mousse is haircare technology thousands of years away from being invented by the Kazon all by themselves which would be a monumental disruption to their development as a species.
