Agreed! He swung that bat'leth, completely ignoring Riker shouting his name, and stabbed him right in the throat! Yes! What always confused me about that scene was why Worf took off his sash. -- RR
Why did they turn Gowron into a dick?
- Thread starter Garak007
- Start date
Agreed! He swung that bat'leth, completely ignoring Riker shouting his name, and stabbed him right in the throat! Yes! What always confused me about that scene was why Worf took off his sash. -- RR
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
Thanks for mentioning the horrible ENT Duras. I can see why that show failed. The writers needed a bad guy Klingon and instead of coming up with a new character with a new background and story that they could tell to the audience. They got a 2-D character and gave him the same name has other villians in the franchise to cop out.Dickheads.
BFD-he was simply and obviously the first of the Duras line, possibly a great-grandfather of the current Duras. I had no problem with it, why do you? This is just a way to put down ENT on your part.
It would have been interesting if Worf had become leader of the Empire for a time, it would have been appropriate considering all the trials he went through and all he had learned if after he went to give Martok the mantle of leader if Martok had instead said "You cannot so easily relinquish the duty of leadership that has now come to you, you have a responsibility now to lead the Empire!"...and why not Worf could have made a great leader in the war and the fans would have loved it.
Just a thought though, can't change history now.
Just a thought though, can't change history now.
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
Yeah, they acted, all right-way too late, and in not enough number for there to be any real impact. Where was the Cardassian equivalent of the White Rose Society in Nazi Germany, or of ARA in Portugal during the Salazar/Caetano regime that staged bombings of military barracks, equipment stores, or military/police communications centers? Where were these people during the short-lived sham Deetapa Council administration, and why didn't they use whatever freedom they had during that period to start some alternative media, cyberhacking sabotage organizations, etc to frustrate and wreck the military and the Obsidian Order (especially after half of it was wiped out in that joint venture with the Tal Shiar?) What did these people truly do to make themselves free?
A lot, except when it comes way too late, and in not enough numbers, and only after the Dominion alliance became the Dominion occupation. Kind of like what happened in Nazi Germany in 1944.
Okay, I'll grant you that, but please try to remember that the Klingons were like this since antiquity, and that this forms a part of their culture (as evidenced by Kahless and his teachings.)
B'Elanna may not have cared for it that much, or seemed to, but judging by the visit she paid to Kronos and the undertaking of a survival ritual in the post return to Earth Star Trek Voyager novel, I never would have guessed. The same also holds true for Alexander, who seemed to have embraced the Klingon culture enough to be in the armed forces during the Dominion War, and his stepmother's embracing of Klingon culture as seen by her joining Kor, Kang and Koloth on a mission of blood vengeance, not to mention her drinking and eating Klingon food, and her getting married to Worf in the traditional Klingon manner. Obviously, it didn't faze them or put them off that much.
The Cardies didn't do much dissenting until it was too late-at least some Klingons have tried to change.
What is there to admire in Cardie society? Shitty novels where everybody is guilty? Where generations of one family are shown as being proud to have served a totalitarian regime? Pouring the same sauce over everything that they eat (similar to putting ketchup on everything one eats)? Chronic addiction to kanar? That's not much of a culture to admire.
Hey, I liked it, and it sound like a great concept for Star Trek-a superhero on another planet!
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Based on what we've seen in the show, my guess is they were either in exile, in hiding or dead/in jail. If there was such freedom during that time, why was Tekeny Ghemor in exile when he died?
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
Based on what we've seen in the show, my guess is they were either in exile, in hiding or dead/in jail. If there was such freedom during that time, why was Tekeny Ghemor in exile when he died?[/QUOTE]
Okay, you got me there.
Okay, you got me there.
My guess is that when the Klingon attacks on Cardassian territories started, instead of being able to really take advantage of the new opportunities for freedom that could have come about from the Detapa uprising, that more authoritarian elements--most likely in the military (and, I believe, led by Dukat, who I suspect acted like Robespierre in that situation) took advantage of the situation to worm their way in and make these new civilian leaders feel beholden to them. In effect, I think they tried and quite likely succeeded in making puppets out of the Detapa Council.
Add to that the fact that I am not even sure it was stated in canon that they were permitted to return to Cardassian territory after the evacuation...could that have been part of Dukat's plan, to get all these troublemakers out of Cardassian space once and for all?
Was this too little, too late, on the part of the dissidents when you compare to the 500-year span of the Cardassian Union? Yes...and yet I admire them for trying in the face of the extreme repression and conditioning that they'd been subjected to for as long as they could remember. They didn't even have the memory of freedom to fall back upon that some of the people in the regimes you name had, and they still tried.
In the end, the great tragedy is that what would finally get Cardassia to start over was the Dominion's genocide attempt. But I think that unlike the Klingons there IS a chance for change.
As to what I admire in Cardassian society, it is very much an issue of potential. On the show, we saw it expressed in its purest form in the persons of Tekeny Ghemor, Joret Dal, and arguably even in Tora Ziyal. Be aware, of course, that for each trait I am about to cite, there is a way that the Union--that the "official" culture has twisted it, and badly. And I am aware of and do not excuse the twisting. So, if you keep someone like Ghemor in your head, you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Many Cardassians talk about devotion to family--but look at the way Tekeny practices it and you'll see what the Cardassians could be if they'd only follow after his example. Look at patriotism, too. Ghemor was far from hating Cardassia, but instead of giving him an excuse to slavishly follow his leaders, it was a reason for him to change things. Reverence of age, and tradition--good, again, until it becomes an excuse for never changing things until it's too late, and yet NOT a bad trait in proper measure. Discipline of mind through education: eidetic memory and the ability to screen out telepathic intrusion...again something that should be retained as long as it can be done without attacking free will, which the sort of indoctrination that we saw does.
Every one of these things has potential to be re-created into a purer form, one that does not involve oppressing one's own people, or others. That's what's tragic about watching what happens to Cardassia: you know they could be better and yet despite the efforts of the dissidents, they never quite turn the corner and end up going down a path that leads to utter and complete devastation. But the existence of these dissidents gives one hope that after the Dominion War, when everything has finally been cracked open, that there WILL be actual changes.
For the Klingons, being the way they've been since antiquity, and without ever challenging it (and aside from possibly Chancellor Gorkon, I have NOT seen a meaningful challenge), does not excuse them. It simply gives them a longer track record of atrocities that they think is worth boasting about. I do not see how that raises them above the Cardassians.
Add to that the fact that I am not even sure it was stated in canon that they were permitted to return to Cardassian territory after the evacuation...could that have been part of Dukat's plan, to get all these troublemakers out of Cardassian space once and for all?
Was this too little, too late, on the part of the dissidents when you compare to the 500-year span of the Cardassian Union? Yes...and yet I admire them for trying in the face of the extreme repression and conditioning that they'd been subjected to for as long as they could remember. They didn't even have the memory of freedom to fall back upon that some of the people in the regimes you name had, and they still tried.
In the end, the great tragedy is that what would finally get Cardassia to start over was the Dominion's genocide attempt. But I think that unlike the Klingons there IS a chance for change.
As to what I admire in Cardassian society, it is very much an issue of potential. On the show, we saw it expressed in its purest form in the persons of Tekeny Ghemor, Joret Dal, and arguably even in Tora Ziyal. Be aware, of course, that for each trait I am about to cite, there is a way that the Union--that the "official" culture has twisted it, and badly. And I am aware of and do not excuse the twisting. So, if you keep someone like Ghemor in your head, you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Many Cardassians talk about devotion to family--but look at the way Tekeny practices it and you'll see what the Cardassians could be if they'd only follow after his example. Look at patriotism, too. Ghemor was far from hating Cardassia, but instead of giving him an excuse to slavishly follow his leaders, it was a reason for him to change things. Reverence of age, and tradition--good, again, until it becomes an excuse for never changing things until it's too late, and yet NOT a bad trait in proper measure. Discipline of mind through education: eidetic memory and the ability to screen out telepathic intrusion...again something that should be retained as long as it can be done without attacking free will, which the sort of indoctrination that we saw does.
Every one of these things has potential to be re-created into a purer form, one that does not involve oppressing one's own people, or others. That's what's tragic about watching what happens to Cardassia: you know they could be better and yet despite the efforts of the dissidents, they never quite turn the corner and end up going down a path that leads to utter and complete devastation. But the existence of these dissidents gives one hope that after the Dominion War, when everything has finally been cracked open, that there WILL be actual changes.
For the Klingons, being the way they've been since antiquity, and without ever challenging it (and aside from possibly Chancellor Gorkon, I have NOT seen a meaningful challenge), does not excuse them. It simply gives them a longer track record of atrocities that they think is worth boasting about. I do not see how that raises them above the Cardassians.
I agree that on-screen the 23rd and 24th century Klingons were never shown possessing the desire to change in the manner that many citizens of Cardassia- and Romulus, for that matter- were. However, in the books there is some attempt at addressing this. Have you ever read the "Left Hand of Destiny" novel duology, Nerys? I would be really interested in hearing your take on it.
It was sort-of a part of the relaunch, so you might have read it. In case you haven't, its about Martok having to come to a few harsh realizations about the Klingon mindset, how they've always been too fearful to confront themselves and combat their hypocrisy and corruption, instead lashing out on the rest of the galaxy. Its my favourite Klingon story, and I wonder what you think or would think of it, particularly in terms of how Martok's epiphanies relate to Garak's in "A Stitch in Time". The Klingons hit rock bottom just as the Cardassians do...but, again, there's hope that their admirable qualities might be promoted if they can learn to actually confront the problem.I think you're entirely right about the state of the Klingon mindset on screen (though I think they are very much a complex and spiritual culture, only it's become so yoked to the "Must Fight and Kill!" concept it all only exists to serve that, much as how all Cardassia's complexities were yoked to concepts such as "Must Serve the State" and therefore were twisted from noble qualities to distasteful ones), but I wondered if you have any feelings on the issue in the novels?
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I do wonder why the writers never offered us a Klingon dissidant movement. Both the Cardassians and Romulans, as very flawed and troubling societies, were presented as having popularist movements attempting, as best they could, to influence their societies into moving in other, better directions, to improve on what being Cardassian or Romulan meant. Cardassian dissidants in DS9 (Ghemor, Lang, etc) and Romulan pro-unificationists, anti-war protestors and popularists in TNG (Jarok, M'ret, the dissidants in "Unification") received a reasonable amount of attention, yet where was the Klingon movement trying to better their society? The writers presented the Klingons as an equally flawed society- hypocritical, corrupt, pointlessly bloodthirsty,etc, so why did we never see "the Klingon Pacifist Brigade"?
While there could have been changes in the layout of Klingon society, a reversal of the scale of turning the Klingons from aggresive warriors into calm pacifists would require a completely different mindset that would perhaps be beyond the 'capabilities' of the species. A meek Klingon doesn't tend to last long within their society. The dissident examples mentioned for the Romulans and Cardassians are more rebels to the government and politics, whereas with the Klingons, even with a change of government and political system are still at their heart going to be a generally violent race. Though that has unfortunate implications in that they're not capable of change.
Either that or the writers had no idea how to realistically write such a thing happen.
I may have to try 'Left Hand of Destiny' though, thanks for the name drop, Deranged Nasat.
Either that or the writers had no idea how to realistically write such a thing happen.
I may have to try 'Left Hand of Destiny' though, thanks for the name drop, Deranged Nasat.
Cardassians are essentially TOS Klingons fleshed out. Of course, one could say they are humans as we really are rather than as we wish to be. TOS "purist" though I may be, they are my favorite aliens, too.
Dusty Ayres
Commodore
Such a thing was shown to be able to happen in a Star Trek novel in which Kirk, while trying to save a Klingon ship, ends up in the future, where he finds that the Klingons have become peaceful people who only occasionally play sports like klin zha. Of course, this turns out to be all a ruse by the Klingons to invade Earth under the guise of being a peace fleet of 'New Klingons', and the 'New Klingons' turn out to be old Klingons with their real natures suppressed by drugs and therapy to make them act docile (there are also disguised Klingons on Earth and in Starfleet using the same drugs, under assumed names of people who had died in natural disasters or accidents, one of them a Brit named Elliot Tindal who Spock has to normalize with a mind-meld after the drugs wear off and he starts to act nasty towards his wife.)
It may be that hybridization of Klingons and humans might be the only way to effect change in Klingon society and Klingon culture.
For my money, all these attempts to explain Klingon and Cardassian cultures by appealing to biology are... Well, frankly, I find them both boring and intellectually lazy. Instead of simply accepting that a culture can be different, we're inventing some sort of fundamental biological difference, some sort of inherent Otherness to explain why their cultures aren't like ours. Well, why would their culture be like ours? Why can't a culture just be different because it's different, period? Real life has had plenty of cultures similar to those of the Klingons and Cardassians without there being any fundamental biological differences between Humans.
ETA: By the way, everyone talking about how "Klingons have always been this way" should remember that in ENT's "Judgment," it was revealed that, no, the domination of Klingon political culture by the warrior caste was a relatively new development; Klingons have not always been this way. End Edit.
As for the question of why more Cardassians didn't act to create a more free society when the Detapa Council was in control before Dukat and the Dominion overthrew them...
The recent novel The Never-Ending Sacrifice by Una McCormack has a really interesting take on this. Basically, as much as Our Heroes on DS9 have always wanted to see the Cardassian dissident movement as being this admirable group of pro-liberty resistance fighters, that wasn't an accurate view. The dissident movement's leaders were just another elitist political faction whose primary goal was power for itself. In the novel, upon assuming power, everyone assumes that the Detapa Council will call for elections soon and that Tekeney Ghemor will return from exile to be elected the new Cardassian head of government, but the woman who took power during the coup against the Central Command refuses to rescind Ghemor's exile or call elections, for fear that he'd beat her in an election, and eventually allows Gul Dukat (then serving as their military advisor and liaison) to send in the army to brutally put down a group of pro-democracy protestors.
ETA: By the way, everyone talking about how "Klingons have always been this way" should remember that in ENT's "Judgment," it was revealed that, no, the domination of Klingon political culture by the warrior caste was a relatively new development; Klingons have not always been this way. End Edit.
As for the question of why more Cardassians didn't act to create a more free society when the Detapa Council was in control before Dukat and the Dominion overthrew them...
The recent novel The Never-Ending Sacrifice by Una McCormack has a really interesting take on this. Basically, as much as Our Heroes on DS9 have always wanted to see the Cardassian dissident movement as being this admirable group of pro-liberty resistance fighters, that wasn't an accurate view. The dissident movement's leaders were just another elitist political faction whose primary goal was power for itself. In the novel, upon assuming power, everyone assumes that the Detapa Council will call for elections soon and that Tekeney Ghemor will return from exile to be elected the new Cardassian head of government, but the woman who took power during the coup against the Central Command refuses to rescind Ghemor's exile or call elections, for fear that he'd beat her in an election, and eventually allows Gul Dukat (then serving as their military advisor and liaison) to send in the army to brutally put down a group of pro-democracy protestors.
Which I thought was quite realistic, although I believe Rejal and the others truly did intend to better the Cardassian people, they just lost sight of that goal when their fear response kicked in. I think Cardassians are like (real)humans and Klingons in that once they find themselves in a position of authority they have a tendency to view political power as an end in itself, and their original intentions and ideologies get lost underneath it. It's all about fear, in my view (something all three races have in ridiculous amounts, as Garak and Martok learn for their respective peoples); I believe they need to feel secure and in control, so as best to help their people and secure their survival. The power gives them that, but the fear runs so deep thanks to the seige mentality these cultures have developed (in harsh times gone by) that when control and security is threatened the instinct kicks into overdrive -- to the point where the leaders simply won't let go of that power at any cost, even when they're causing far more harm than good to their people and themselves.
Cardassians, Klingons and (real)humans have always been insistant on "strong leaders", but they forget that when you promote strength so highly, any weakness or vulnerability becomes intolerable, and so at the first sign of challenge or struggle the leader's response is not to address it reasonably but to desparately cover their tracks and try to hide their own vulnerability. They therefore tighten their hold on their position, becoming demonstrably "stronger" to the point where they refuse to be budged. People therefore lose sight of the actual goal of political authority- the original means by which they sought power- which is to better their tribe, their family, their people (either they had this aim in mind, or even if not that's the instinctive desire). Political power and holding onto it becomes an end in itself, and it's all born of fear. It happened with Rejal on Cardassia, with Gowron on Qo'noS, with any number of real-life human leaders; because these are cultures which never learned to be unafraid. These are cultures living with a seige mentality that manifests in oppression (of their own people and others), violence and a refusal to self-examine.
At least that's how I see it.
Well it's an attempt at justifying the inherent 'One Planet, One Culture' phenomena that's very inherent in science fiction. In the case of the Klingons, it seems to be a case that their culture has also been in stasis for hundreds of years, so there has to be some kind of reason for that. What reason could that be? A biological imperative? What's to say it isn't? How many cultures do we know of that have stayed essetially the same for ~1500 years?
It could be due to other factors, but since we have no way of judging how monolithic another species may be in terms of variation, we have no way of knowing what drives besides history there may be as to how a sentient culture is derived. The Borg have been the way they have for a similar period of time as the Klingons, if not longer, and we easily such a thing happens with them, through the nature of their technology.
So all the histories of the various houses and the like we've seen or been told exist in all the other series is just a massive amount of historical revisionism/altering on the part of the warrior cast?
I don't think we really know enough about Kahless-era Klingon culture to judge that they've been in stasis. We know that the Kingons like to emphasize aspects of their culture from 1500 years ago that jive with what they've got going on now, but every culture does that. If you talk to most devout Christians, they'll try to make it seem like the culture that Jesus grew up in and later influenced wasn't all that different from modern American culture, but we all know that it is vastly different.
DS9's wedding episode made it very clear that Klingons routinely engage in historical revisionism. It's not at all hard to believe that the warrior caste was always important but had not previously so dominated Klingon political culture.
On the hand, I do not believe we can expect other species, evolving from other ancestors, to have identical biological drives to ours. That does not mean those drives are all they are--people CAN make decisions and decide they do not want to follow a certain path even if there is some kind of biological drive. That's what I love about the dissidents: these are people who recognize the power of their free will.
Now, in my own work I have the advantage of working with two different universes where even though there WERE non-human instincts in play, you get a totally different series of choices made and end up with two radically different Cardassian societies as a result. Both are Cardassian. But believe me, you would never for one second mistake one for the other, because whatever their evolution was, they made choices. (Heck, I actually wrote the story where the two universes split as a "Choose Your Own Adventure" type story--because it all came down not to a moment of fate, or a moment of mind-blindness, but a moment of CHOICE.)
I would recommend you actually read all of my work before you try to make comments about my intellect. God knows I'm not the best thing since sliced bread, but if you actually looked at the work I've done, you'd know I'm FAR from lazy.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
About klingon "honor":
In my opinion, the klingons are far from being an interesting species - they are like a gang of bikers in space; thugs who speak only about their honor - a concept which they define differently in different situations, serving only to justify whatever they're doing at the moment.
The klingons speak about loyalty as a virtue - but one advances in rank by killing his superior (very "loyal").
Klingons claim that they always keep their word - and yet, in Enterprise, they don't even pay a bounty hunter the established reward. A few hundred years later, they attack the Cardassians behind the Federation's (their allies) back and then they have the nerve to say that it was the Federation who betrayed them.
About klingon "sophistication" and "refinement":
I think all posters are familiar with the smell on their ships - and their "hygienic" eating habits.
Need I say more?
In my opinion, the klingons are far from being an interesting species - they are like a gang of bikers in space; thugs who speak only about their honor - a concept which they define differently in different situations, serving only to justify whatever they're doing at the moment.
The klingons speak about loyalty as a virtue - but one advances in rank by killing his superior (very "loyal").
Klingons claim that they always keep their word - and yet, in Enterprise, they don't even pay a bounty hunter the established reward. A few hundred years later, they attack the Cardassians behind the Federation's (their allies) back and then they have the nerve to say that it was the Federation who betrayed them.
About klingon "sophistication" and "refinement":
I think all posters are familiar with the smell on their ships - and their "hygienic" eating habits.
Need I say more?
They're hardly unique in the universe, on a species or individual level.
Par for the course for violent 'meritocracies', and how Klingons see it as an officer's duty to ensure that their superiors are not getting weak. If a leader is strong, his crew shall follow. How many times have we seen a superior officer on a ship be killed by an underling?
Also consider the fact that if the usurper can't rely on the support of the rest of the crew, he could be cut down by anyone else for even trying to raise a hand to their captain, that is, if they don't manage to issue an official challenge in time.
Can't remember this episode, so can't really comment.
Point of order, they hardly did it behind the Federation's backs. They openly offered the Federation the chance to join them. If there was any backstabbing going on here, it was Sisko warning the Cardassians that the Klingons were coming. Whether justified or not, the Klingons weren't the ones going behind their allies backs.
The Celts said that the Romans stank, because they didn't bathe.
Need I say more?
Besides, a species smell can be far greater than the ability for bathing can deal with. Vulcans say humans stink, though we don't think so. Some novels also establish a Klingon's sense of smell is so great, humans are quite noticeable. Remember how to some people, humans of other nationalities/races have very distinctive smells.
ProtoAvatar
Fleet Captain
So - they're not the only bullies/pirates in the universe. This changes nothing.
It's easy to follow someone successful.
Loyalty is tested when you follow someone who failed, at great disadvantage to yourself. The klingons fail at being loyal. They may speak of loyalty all the time - their actions speak differently.
Ent:Bounty.
They openly offered the Federation the chance to join them?
Since when?
They massed their forces to attack the cardassians without saying anything about their plans to the Federation. Worf found out about the klingon agenda thanks to his connections. The Federation objected to the klingon invasion - and the klingons did it anyway.
A little later, ONE PERSON convinced the ENTIRE klingon council to declare war on the Federation - the klingons broke the word they gave to their allies.
Consider - the Martok changeling did not brainwash the klingons - he CONVINCED them the old-fashioned way to break their "promise" - very "loyal".
Yes, you do.The Celts said that the Romans stank, because they didn't bathe.
Need I say more?
The romans' eating habits were far more civilized than the klingons - these guys spill half the drink/food on their clothes!
Plus - the romans had the excuse of NOT having the capabilities to maintain proper hygiene. The same cannot be said about the spacefaring klingons.
So - klingons are biologically unwashed. That's why Worf - a most atypical klingon - was always so smelly - sarcasm.
If the klingons have such a great sense of smell, you'll think they'll try to avoid unbearable (FOR HUMANS) "aromas" - see Ent:Sleeping Dogs (that klingon ship probably smelled like a garbage dump!).
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