Why did the Borg only use one cube to attack Earth?

[Christopher]

As you mention, right before the Enterprise travels back in time, we do see an assimilated Earth, so yes, assimilation still was their primary goal. My question still remains as to why the Borg chose that particular point in time. Assimilating Earth in the 1980's, say, would have ended in the same result as assimilating Earth in 2063.

No, it wouldn't, because Earth's technology would've been less advanced to them and thus less worth assimilating.

Remember: The Borg do not create. They take what others have created. They couldn't turn a pre-technological world into a Borg world, because there isn't enough tech for them to absorb/adapt. They needed to assimilate Earth at a point when it would've had enough advanced technology for them to use as raw material.

Why does disrupting first contact with the Vulcans have anything whatsoever to do with their ultimate goal?

As I already said, my proposal is that they chose that point because it was the point that Earth became warp-capable and thus the earliest point when it was advanced enough to be worth assimilating. Of course, that's a stretch, because a world with only one functioning warp engine isn't all that useful to them. But in order for that one engine to exist, all the necessary technological ingredients and industrial infrastructure to build more must've existed too, despite the way the film portrayed Cochrane's operation as small and ragtag.

But they were trying to prevent First Contact. So how does that help them assimilate what they want in the future if Earth never becomes the Federation's primary world?

Exactly my point. The premise of the film falls apart if you examine it too closely. I'm just suggesting that what they chose was a compromise position between removing the Federation as an obstacle and gaining enough useful biological and technological distinctiveness from it. In order to achieve the former, they had to sacrifice some of the latter, but they chose a late enough point that they didn't sacrifice too much of it. It's not a very convincing handwave, but it's something.


What I proposed in DTI: Watching the Clock was that the Borg were manipulated into this out-of-character operation by the Sphere Builders, as a third attempt to defeat the Federation and clear the way for their invasion after their attempts in the 26th and 22nd centuries failed. They used the Borg as a scapegoat so the Temporal Agents wouldn't identify their involvement and stop them. So it wasn't entirely the Borg's idea. But it would've still needed to be something that would make sense to the Borg as something that served their needs.

 

[Dukhat]

No, it wouldn't, because Earth's technology would've been less advanced to them and thus less worth assimilating.

Remember: The Borg do not create. They take what others have created. They couldn't turn a pre-technological world into a Borg world, because there isn't enough tech for them to absorb/adapt. They needed to assimilate Earth at a point when it would've had enough advanced technology for them to use as raw material.

I beg to differ. In 2063, Earth was post-apocalyptic. There was nothing at that point in Earth's history that would have been worth assimilating.

But in order for that one engine to exist, all the necessary technological ingredients and industrial infrastructure to build more must've existed too, despite the way the film portrayed Cochrane's operation as small and ragtag.

But I'm basing my opinions on what I saw, not what logic should dictate.

Exactly my point. The premise of the film falls apart if you examine it too closely. I'm just suggesting that what they chose was a compromise position between removing the Federation as an obstacle and gaining enough useful biological and technological distinctiveness from it. In order to achieve the former, they had to sacrifice some of the latter, but they chose a late enough point that they didn't sacrifice too much of it. It's not a very convincing handwave, but it's something.

I agree with you that the Borg's actions are completely out of character for them. Quite frankly, if they had the power of time travel, the best point in time they could have gone back to was right before BoBW. That's where they suffered their original defeat at the hands of the Federation, so they could have corrected that and also reaped the benefits of assimilating the Federation.

 

[Christopher]

I beg to differ. In 2063, Earth was post-apocalyptic. There was nothing at that point in Earth's history that would have been worth assimilating.

Yet Cochrane was able to build a warp engine. Obviously a technological infrastructure must have existed. Just because Bozeman, Montana looked post-apocalyptic, that doesn't mean the world had reverted to the Stone Age.

I agree with you that the Borg's actions are completely out of character for them. Quite frankly, if they had the power of time travel, the best point in time they could have gone back to was right before BoBW. That's where they suffered their original defeat at the hands of the Federation, so they could have corrected that and also reaped the benefits of assimilating the Federation.

To the Borg, the Federation is a minor nuisance up until Voyager shows up in their backyard, allying with their enemies and resistance factions, and eventually destroying their transwarp hub. The Federation is one very distant power in a gigantic galaxy. That's another reason I needed to rationalize the time travel as a unique event. If the Borg had time travel on their own, they wouldn't have wasted it on the Federation alone; they would've gone back thousands or millions of years and retroactively assimilated the whole damn galaxy.

 

[Damian]

I actually always thought one of the goals was to prevent the Federation from coming into being in the first place. The Borg have been frustrated by the Federation and they were the one organization to thwart their plans. I figured their goal wasn't just to assimilate humanity and Earth, but to once an for all get the Federation out of the way. Their aims were twofold, technology and biological distinctiveness. I figured being able to assimilate more cultures overrode the loss the lack of creation would lead to. Christopher's DTI story he mentioned gives some good reasoning to why they tried to do what they did and Gene DeWeese's novel "Engines of Destiny" also gives some insights because it shows how history unfolded had the Borg succeeded in their plans.

But for me I always figured the primary point was to stop the Federation before it ever started. I just figured assimilating Earth was more or less a bonus to that gol.

 

[Christopher]

I actually always thought one of the goals was to prevent the Federation from coming into being in the first place. The Borg have been frustrated by the Federation and they were the one organization to thwart their plans.

Hardly the only one. Arturis's species resisted the Borg for centuries before they finally fell. I'm sure the Voth could handily keep the Borg at bay as well, and probably have, given how close Voth territory is to Borg territory. And it was around the same time as FC -- several months earlier if we go by stardates -- that the Borg encountered Species 8472, which did immensely more damage to them than the Federation ever did. Which adds a further problem, since the Collective should've been too busy with the invaders on their doorstep to worry about a remote threat like the UFP at that point. (Although if we go by release dates instead of stardates, the first 8472 attack -- 5 months before "Scorpion" -- would've been about a month after FC.)

As of 2373, the only damage the Federation had done to the Collective was the destruction of one cube and the infection of a second with an individuality meme-virus. As we saw in VGR, the Collective has tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of cubes. No way in hell would they have seen the UFP as an existential threat at that point. We would've been a minor nuisance to them, half a galaxy away from their core territory. That wouldn't have changed until after FC, until Janeway allied with 8472 and got on the Borg's radar, and when she went on to do more cumulative damage to the Collective over the next 4 years.

 

[Damian]

Hardly the only one. Arturis's species resisted the Borg for centuries before they finally fell. I'm sure the Voth could handily keep the Borg at bay as well, and probably have, given how close Voth territory is to Borg territory. And it was around the same time as FC -- several months earlier if we go by stardates -- that the Borg encountered Species 8472, which did immensely more damage to them than the Federation ever did. Which adds a further problem, since the Collective should've been too busy with the invaders on their doorstep to worry about a remote threat like the UFP at that point. (Although if we go by release dates instead of stardates, the first 8472 attack -- 5 months before "Scorpion" -- would've been about a month after FC.)

As of 2373, the only damage the Federation had done to the Collective was the destruction of one cube and the infection of a second with an individuality meme-virus. As we saw in VGR, the Collective has tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of cubes. No way in hell would they have seen the UFP as an existential threat at that point. We would've been a minor nuisance to them, half a galaxy away from their core territory. That wouldn't have changed until after FC, until Janeway allied with 8472 and got on the Borg's radar, and when she went on to do more cumulative damage to the Collective over the next 4 years.

Perhaps, though, that's why they only devoted one ship to the effort. That it wasn't worth sending a fleet of ships, but they found an opportunity to end the Federation before it began. But that it wasn't worth expending all their energy into.

One thing about the Borg is they are probably excellent at things like statistics. They probably calculated the probability of success and determined they'd only need one ship to do what they wanted and figured out they had the resources to spare a ship to the effort without sacrificing their other goals (this is what we have, this is what we need, probability for success, what we have to lose if we fail)

 

[Christopher]

Perhaps, though, that's why they only devoted one ship to the effort. That it wasn't worth sending a fleet of ships, but they found an opportunity to end the Federation before it began. But that it wasn't worth expending all their energy into.

True... but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, a Borg cube shouldn't be thought of as "one ship." It's more like a full armada in one package, powerful enough to destroy an entire enemy fleet or assimilate a populated planet all by itself. (Although that raises many questions about how something only a few kilometers across can scoop up every city on a planet. Is it teleporting them somewhere? Storing them as transporter patterns? Shrinking them a la Brainiac? What?)

 

[Nyotarules]

Gene DeWeese's novel "Engines of Destiny" also gives some insights because it shows how history unfolded had the Borg succeeded in their plans.

However assimilating Earth did not prevent the creation of another Interstellar Coalition from forming.

 

[Stephen!]

Have you read Engines of destiny by Gene DeWeese?

That novel never really made much sense. If Kirk never ends up in the nexus, he wouldn't be able to help Picard defeat Soran. If Picard is killed when Veridian 3 is destroyed, there's no need for the Borg to travel back in time, since he wouldn't be around to destroy the cube.

 

[Damian]

That novel never really made much sense. If Kirk never ends up in the nexus, he wouldn't be able to help Picard defeat Soran. If Picard is killed when Veridian 3 is destroyed, there's no need for the Borg to travel back in time, since he wouldn't be around to destroy the cube.

I generally figured that was the Borg's primary goal to begin with, to assimilate Earth in the past. It never made much sense to me that they just did that on the fly. I always figured they had that plan from the get go.

Plus who's to say someone else in the armada did not get lucky at some point and destroyed the cube.

However assimilating Earth did not prevent the creation of another Interstellar Coalition from forming.

True enough. But the Borg wouldn't know that, and the coalition from the novel is not really like the Federation.

It's sort of like the Crucible novel on McCoy. It shows a possible future where the Borg did succeed in the past and events that could have transpired (much like McCoy's alternate life had he saved Edith Keeler and Kirk and Spock never came back). However, the primary point of Engines of Destiny I thought was the show the dangers of tampering with the past, even with good intentions, and even if you think you did it the right way.

 

[Damian]

True... but as I pointed out earlier in the thread, a Borg cube shouldn't be thought of as "one ship." It's more like a full armada in one package, powerful enough to destroy an entire enemy fleet or assimilate a populated planet all by itself. (Although that raises many questions about how something only a few kilometers across can scoop up every city on a planet. Is it teleporting them somewhere? Storing them as transporter patterns? Shrinking them a la Brainiac? What?)

Yes, that's true, another reason I thought as to why they sent a lone ship to Earth. I'd imagine it was a combination of factors.

Perhaps a future novel can address how a lone ship could assimilate an entire world (though it would have to be a historical account I guess considering their fate in Destiny). Didn't some pre-Destiny novels address that to a point with the USS Einstein (I remember it being referred to as Frankenstein)?

 

[Nyotarules]

I generally figured that was the Borg's primary goal to begin with, to assimilate Earth in the past. It never made much sense to me that they just did that on the fly. I always figured they had that plan from the get go.

Plus who's to say someone else in the armada did not get lucky at some point and destroyed the cube.



True enough. But the Borg wouldn't know that, and the coalition from the novel is not really like the Federation.

It's sort of like the Crucible novel on McCoy. It shows a possible future where the Borg did succeed in the past and events that could have transpired (much like McCoy's alternate life had he saved Edith Keeler and Kirk and Spock never came back). However, the primary point of Engines of Destiny I thought was the show the dangers of tampering with the past, even with good intentions, and even if you think you did it the right way.

Yeah I was not a fan of the premise that Scotty was so torn up over Kirk's death that he tampers with the timeline. Scotty and Kirk were not best buddies. I can see Kirk doing something like that for Spock or McCoy but not Scotty for Kirk. Plus that Coalition had most of the Alpha quadrant as allies rather than enemies, due to the circumstances. In some ways more united than the Federation.

 

[Damian]

Scotty thought he wasn't tampering with the timeline though. He was very meticulous over making sure not to transport Kirk until he had succeeded in saving the Enterprise-B. And part of the reason he did it was guilt. He thought it was partly his fault Kirk 'died'. So I got the impression it was sort of a feeling of responsibility, more so then friendship. That guilt also led him to retire in the novel if I remember correctly, which led to him being found on the Dyson Sphere.

The only 2 other people from the 24th century that could have done it were Spock and McCoy. And they had lived a long time since that event to move on (as opposed to Scotty, who from his perspective was far less time). And McCoy didn't have the expertise anyway.

But I think the whole point of the novel more than anything is that when you pull on the tapestry of history, consequences you can't even imagine can occur. What I liked about the novel is that by Scotty saving Kirk, Kirk was not there to help Picard 78 years later, therefore everyone on the Enterprise died (as did everyone on Veridian IV since Soran apparently succeeded in what he wanted to do), and that in turn has a devastating affect on the past. And Scotty, even at the end of the novel, didn't know why Kirk being left on the Enterprise-B was so important since he came from a time before Generations.

 

[Dukhat]

Yet Cochrane was able to build a warp engine. Obviously a technological infrastructure must have existed. Just because Bozeman, Montana looked post-apocalyptic, that doesn't mean the world had reverted to the Stone Age.

While I agree that one doesn't just build a warp engine in one's backyard, that is exactly what the film would have us believe.

To the Borg, the Federation is a minor nuisance up until Voyager shows up in their backyard, allying with their enemies and resistance factions, and eventually destroying their transwarp hub.

Huh? That didn't happen until years after ST:FC. If the Federation wasn't a nuisance until after Voyager's 4th season, then why did they feel the need to come up with the crazy plan to assimilate Earth in the past?

 

[Christopher]

While I agree that one doesn't just build a warp engine in one's backyard, that is exactly what the film would have us believe.

I don't think it's that clear. Riker says "Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left." Which clearly means that there are some cities and some governments left -- plus he doesn't say anything about private industry.

And regardless of what the film implies, we have functional brains and are allowed to interpret fiction rather than being passive sponges. Just because a story tells you something, you're not required to agree with it.

Huh? That didn't happen until years after ST:FC. If the Federation wasn't a nuisance until after Voyager's 4th season, then why did they feel the need to come up with the crazy plan to assimilate Earth in the past?

Yes, that is exactly my point -- that they did not see the Federation as an existential threat until years later, and that the whole premise of the film is fundamentally nonsensical. As I've said, I had to rationalize it in my novel as the Sphere Builders manipulating the Borg into doing something that they would've had no reason or inclination to do on their own.

 

[Damian]

I don't think it's that clear. Riker says "Most of the major cities have been destroyed. There are few governments left." Which clearly means that there are some cities and some governments left -- plus he doesn't say anything about private industry.

And regardless of what the film implies, we have functional brains and are allowed to interpret fiction rather than being passive sponges. Just because a story tells you something, you're not required to agree with it.




Yes, that is exactly my point -- that they did not see the Federation as an existential threat until years later, and that the whole premise of the film is fundamentally nonsensical. As I've said, I had to rationalize it in my novel as the Sphere Builders manipulating the Borg into doing something that they would've had no reason or inclination to do on their own.

That's one thing I love about novels, they can go and fill plot holes, some of them pretty large.

I'll admit, I was willing to overlook some things with First Contact because it was one of my favorite Star Trek films. The Borg were a great villain. They always had a bit of a creepiness about them (some of which was lost in Voyager I thought) and somehow in FC they upped the creepiness a couple notches. I was glad to see the Borg at least got a movie. But if you think too deeply about it, the premise can start to fall apart. And like anything the writing of the Borg evolved over time. At the time FC came out, if I'm not mistaken, the transwarp hubs they later used in Voyager were not yet written. I had assumed the Borg simply had to travel great distances at the time, which is why very few ships were encountered in the Federation. Now later on, when the transwarp hubs were written in, my thinking had to evolve and I just assumed that either the Borg didn't consider the Federation much of a threat and unworthy to send more than one ship, or my little statistical assumption made above. Or their plan was to go back in time all along. Plus, lets not forget, the Borg are never truly alone. It may have been one ship, but it was connected to all the other Borg in the galaxy. So in a sense it was like having a fleet of Borg ships.

But all the movies are like that to some extent. If I tried to apply real world logic to the movies, and even shows, a lot of it would start to fall apart. Sometimes I just have to accept what they are giving me, not in a mindless, drone sort of way . But actually consciously decide to accept the suspension of disbelief and sit back and enjoy the movie. It helps if the movie is an entertaining one like FC. If the movie stinks, then, well it gets what it deserves I guess.

And it's not that I don't notice the gaps in logic. But I try not to let it ruin a movie if it is an otherwise good movie. I figure guys like Christopher, Greg Cox, David Mack and all the others will fix it all up down the line. It'll keep them from getting bored .

 

[Stephen!]

At the time FC came out, if I'm not mistaken, the transwarp hubs they later used in Voyager were not yet written. I had assumed the Borg simply had to travel great distances at the time, which is why very few ships were encountered in the Federation.

They might have been using transwarp at that time, since there was a transwarp conduit that the Enterprise-D traveled through in "Descent".

 

[DonIago]

I feel like the only way the time travel in FC makes any sort of sense is if we assume that for some reason the Borg's method wasn't one they had precise control over...in other words, they could ensure that they'd time travel back to a point when Earth could be easily assimilated, but they couldn't know in advance whether it would be before or after First Contact. Then again, for them it wouldn't really matter since Earth would be easy pickings regardless (as would the Vulcans).

If you combine that with the time travel being a last-gasp effort to avoid total defeat during the battle, it...vaguely...makes sense...sorta kinda...

No, I'm not -really- trying to make the movie work, but if we're going to grasp at straws...

 

[Dukhat]

And regardless of what the film implies, we have functional brains and are allowed to interpret fiction rather than being passive sponges. Just because a story tells you something, you're not required to agree with it.

Yeah, try telling that to all the people who slavishly think that DSC takes place ten years before TOS just because CBS said so.

 

[Destructor]

I wonder if the time travel was a backup plan once their more straightforward assimilation failed. But that requires too much imagination for the Borg, as I've mentioned. The whole thing was a deeply contrived excuse for a time-travel story and it doesn't really hold up to analysis.

Could the Borg themselves have been stuck in a pre-destination paradox? They received a signal from a Borg ship in the 22nd century, saying, effectively: "We are Borg. We were sent back to Earth from the 24th century. Here are the specs for that time-travel device, so that you can build one and replicate the events, on these dates as specified, that lead to our sending you this message."

The Borg, being machines, could not question the logic of this message, they'd simply receive the instructions and carry them out. Maybe that's why the plan in FC didn't make a lot of sense from first principles?