Why Did Roddenberry Hate the "dreadnought" from the Starfleet Technical Manual?

[Maurice]

Sorry, perhaps I overracted, but it gets tiresome to share information, not trying to be authoritative and even stating such, and have people argue every little point.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Hey, man, I'm not trying to be pedantic or nitpick. If I'm coming off as a jerk, it's not my intention.

I realize you were just stating your opinion; I was just stating mine too. I thoroughly appreciate the research you and others do. It's been a revelation.

 

[David cgc]

That doesn't seem likely at all, because Areel Shaw (lieutenant) and Ms. Piper (ensign/enlisted) both had the flower insignia too. Both are front and center, so chances of a mistake or a decision to sluff it off are much lower than, e.g., the woman coming to attention in Mendez's office with the arrowhead.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Areel_Shaw
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Piper

Because of them, the flower was always generally going to be perceived as "Starbase personnel," not "commodores" and not "starbase senior staff." Since then commodores would not previously have been given their own insignia at all, this (in conjunction with the Antares costumes) is in fact why Decker's insignia was generally viewed as a ship insignia.

Remember, recall wasn't perfect, and they didn't have everything at their fingertips they way we do today, never mind hindsight of what was important and what wasn't. IIRC, in "The Trouble With Tribbles," Fred Phillips didn't remember which aliens from the previous year the Klingons were, and recreated their look based on a black-and-white polaroid, which is why they didn't have their skin darkened as much for that episode.

 

[Christopher]

IIRC, in "The Trouble With Tribbles," Fred Phillips didn't remember which aliens from the previous year the Klingons were, and recreated their look based on a black-and-white polaroid, which is why they didn't have their skin darkened as much for that episode.

It would've had to be "Friday's Child" where that happened first, since that was the first Klingon episode of season 2 and had the same "just a costume and beard" makeup approach as "Tribbles" later on. It wasn't until "A Private Little War" that Phillips finally recreated the "Errand of Mercy" look.

 

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Uh, there weren't any Klingons in "The Apple"; just the Feeders of Vaal.

 

[Christopher]

Sorry, I meant "A Private Little War" -- fixed. Maybe my mind glitched because the Klingon in APLW was colluding with a native named Apella -- or more likely because of the "serpents in the Garden of Eden" reference shared by the two episodes.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Yeah, that's annoying. I wish they'd come up with a more meaningful system than just NX for experimental and NCC for everything else. But apparently Jefferies's intent was that the first two digits of the number would represent the ship class.

Based on all this info, "NCC" should be the designator for a "class of vessel", something along the lines like BB for "battleship" or CV for "aircraft carrier", lets call it "Starship". Hence the dedication brass plaque on the bridge labeling the Enterprise as Starship Class... All ships in the starship class are called Starships regardless of the design subclass or hull class of the ship (i.e. Constitution Class, Miranda Class, etc.). Starships are heavy cruiser type spaceships specially equipped for deep space duty (longterm patrol, exploration, and scientific investigation). "There are only 12 like her in the fleet." I figure Kirk is counting all "starship class" ships and not just "Constitution class" subclass ships.

Any space vessel of Federation registry would use "N" as the first letter....

Mostly agree. However I think that Kirk was refering to Connie-(sub)class within the Starship class/type.

I suggested a similar system up thread.

Potentially known examples could decode to:

NAR: Federation Auxiliary Research Vessel
NBT: Federation ? Transport
NCC: Federation Starship ("Multi-Role Cruiser")
NSP: Federation Supply Vessel
NX: Federation Experimental Vessel

NCC could also be broken down by size into:
NCS = Federation Starship Escort (Defiant, Saber)
NCF = Federation Exploration Frigate (Voyager, Miranda?)
NCC = Federation Exploration Cruiser (Connie (2200s only), Miranda (2200s only), Excelsior, Ambassador)
NCA = Federation Attack Cruiser (Akira, Prometheus, Sovereign?)
NCD = Federation Diplomatic & Exploration Vessel (Galaxy, Sovereign?)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Remember, recall wasn't perfect, and they didn't have everything at their fingertips they way we do today, never mind hindsight of what was important and what wasn't. IIRC, in "The Trouble With Tribbles," Fred Phillips didn't remember which aliens from the previous year the Klingons were, and recreated their look based on a black-and-white polaroid, which is why they didn't have their skin darkened as much for that episode.

Sure, it's not impossible. That's why I think it instead unlikely.

There were indeed more starbase commodores and admirals than starbase women with speaking parts, which is a damn shame actually. Sign o' the times, I know. But besides positing that the women had been forgotten, I could just as easily posit that, given their sparsity, they'd be memorable. Areel Shaw had a unique costume in all of Trek, the only TOS-era female dress uniform ever seen. Unlike the costumes for the men, that had to be made specially. But, yeah, she and her costume could have been completely forgotten by Theiss et al by the next season.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

I prefer NCC = Naval Construction Code.

Especially given that all we ever see is StarFleet vessels.

NCC is simple ID monikor for StarFleet vessels.

Just like USS could potentially stand for:
UFP
StarFleet
StarShip

Which would make a lot more sense.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/NCIA-93_type

My Speculation for NCIA-93:
NCIA = Naval Construction Intelligence Agency
Given how public Section 31 is in the DISCO-verse, it wouldn't surprise me if they get their own Multi-Letter Prefix.

It's almost like a License Plate for your vessel that is part of the UFP.

 

[Christopher]

I prefer NCC = Naval Construction Code.

The versions I've seen are "Naval Construction Contract" and "Navigational Contact Code." I tend to assume it means both.

Just like USS could potentially stand for:
UFP
StarFleet
StarShip

It was repeatedly stated in onscreen dialogue in TOS that it was short for "United Space Ship" or occasionally "United Star Ship." E.g. "I'm Captain James Kirk of the United Star Ship Enterprise" in "The Squire of Gothos" or "You're aboard the United Space Ship Enterprise" in "Space Seed." I tend to assume it's implicitly "United [Federation of Planets] Star Ship."

 

[matthunter]

As for the Delta becoming the Starfleet symbol, remember that Cochrane saw combadges on the E-E crew in the altered FC timeline. As his "ravings" about time travelers were re-examined post-TCW Archer period, perhaps some of his sketches/notes came into vogue?

Could he even have seen the hull registry and name on the E-E during its fly-by of the Phoenix? Maybe Starfleet knows that to have an Enterprise NCC-1701-E you need to "honor" the first ship to bear the registry and name, regardless of whether it actually did anything exceptional (and I'm still in the "it did" camp)?

 

[Christopher]

As for the Delta becoming the Starfleet symbol, remember that Cochrane saw combadges on the E-E crew in the altered FC timeline. As his "ravings" about time travelers were re-examined post-TCW Archer period, perhaps some of his sketches/notes came into vogue?

Could he even have seen the hull registry and name on the E-E during its fly-by of the Phoenix? Maybe Starfleet knows that to have an Enterprise NCC-1701-E you need to "honor" the first ship to bear the registry and name, regardless of whether it actually did anything exceptional (and I'm still in the "it did" camp)?

That's too convoluted. A lot of space-agency and aviation logos in history have had similar shapes -- it's sort of a cross between an arrowhead/airfoil shape and a star shape, so it's a pretty natural design for a space agency to come up with. Probably the reason Bill Theiss (or Matt Jefferies or Pato Guzman?) came up with it in the first place is because they were emulating similar designs from real-world aviation and NASA logos. So I don't see the origin of the logo as some kind of huge mystery that requires time travel to explain.

 

[matthunter]

That's too convoluted. A lot of space-agency and aviation logos in history have had similar shapes -- it's sort of a cross between an arrowhead/airfoil shape and a star shape, so it's a pretty natural design for a space agency to come up with. Probably the reason Bill Theiss (or Matt Jefferies or Pato Guzman?) came up with it in the first place is because they were emulating similar designs from real-world aviation and NASA logos. So I don't see the origin of the logo as some kind of huge mystery that requires time travel to explain.

OK, they saw the British sci-fi series Blake's Seven, which had an evil Federation and a side-slanted Delta and thought "we can redeem this!" a la the arguments about taking back the swastika.

They should have kept the Servalan motif for the head of Starfleet though. Gorgeous dresses and vampish haircuts FTW.

 

[Mysterion]

NCC = No Canon Connotation

 

[StarCruiser]

OK, they saw the British sci-fi series Blake's Seven, which had an evil Federation and a side-slanted Delta and thought "we can redeem this!" a la the arguments about taking back the swastika.

They should have kept the Servalan motif for the head of Starfleet though. Gorgeous dresses and vampish haircuts FTW.

About ten or so years off there... But, still loved both shows!

 

[Maurice]

OK, they saw the British sci-fi series Blake's Seven, which had an evil Federation and a side-slanted Delta and thought "we can redeem this!" a la the arguments about taking back the swastika.

They should have kept the Servalan motif for the head of Starfleet though. Gorgeous dresses and vampish haircuts FTW.

Servalan for the win!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

That’s why the A was decommissioned so soon after it’s construction: it was time for the B to be christened. The A was probably recommissioned after that with a new name and registry number.

I always thought that the reason the Enterprise-A was decommissioned so soon, was because of all the damage it suffered in ST VI - meaning, Starfleet chose not to waste resources on fixing up an old Connie, when there's a new ship class to be had.

Even if there were some "always have an Enterprise" policy

Seems clear that there is no such policy. If there had been, then Starfleet wouldn't have waited so long between Enterprises C and D.

Just like USS could potentially stand for:
UFP
StarFleet
StarShip

Which would make a lot more sense.

IMHO, it would have made the most sense for them to use UFS (United Federation Ship). But since the writers didn't decide on the name 'Federation' until well into TOS' run, there was never any real chance of that.

 

[Mysterion]

I always thought that the reason the Enterprise-A was decommissioned so soon, was because of all the damage it suffered in ST VI - meaning, Starfleet chose not to waste resources on fixing up an old Connie, when there's a new ship class to be had.

Agreed. I mean we see, among other things, a photo torpedo blast go clean through the saucer section. The structural damage involved there in of itself, much less along with everything else that probably happened must have been very extensive.

And I've assumed that part of the Khitomer Accords likely involved some sort of reduction of forces clause. Better to toss in a really broken ship into the "De-commision" column rather than another ship that isn't broken.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Just like USS could potentially stand for:
UFP
StarFleet
StarShip

Given that the most common spoken alternative to USS canonically is Federation Starship (~90 references to either Federation Starship Enterprise or Federation Starship Voyager), I'd suggest that the full name would be "UFP Star Ship"

 

[Henoch]

IMHO, it would have made the most sense for them to use UFS (United Federation Ship). But since the writers didn't decide on the name 'Federation' until well into TOS' run, there was never any real chance of that.

Pre-TOS from the Cage, PIKE: Captain Christopher Pike, United Space Ship Enterprise.

By production order in TOS:

1. United Earth was first coined in The Corbomite Maneuver (3)
2. UESPA first used in Charlie X (8)
3. Starfleet first used in Court Martial (15)
4. Federation first used in Arena (19)
5. United Earth Space Probe Agency coined in Tomorrow is Yesterday (21)
6. United Federation of Planets coined in A Taste of Armageddon (24)

My take:

1. Earth government is called United Earth
2. Earth space activities were managed by the United Earth Space Probe Agency or UESPA
3. Starfleet was in the Command and Control for UESPA
4. Earth is a founding-member world of the United Federation of Planets or UFP or just the Federation
5. Just prior to Season 1, Earth negotiated with the Federation Council to have Starfleet move under Federation Council control to take over command and control of all Federation space activities, hence the transition period during Season 1. When Starfleet started command of various other world space assets, they initiated a common Stardate time system which started at 1000.

Following @KamenRiderBlade logic, all United Earth registry spaceships used USS, but once Starfleet was in command of the Federation assets, they continued the same registry identity:

United Earth became United Federation of Planets
Space stays Space
Ship stays Ship​