Why did Pike promote Kirk...

[Timo]

We're basically facing two possibilities here: either Starfleet had decided upon the personnel of the Enterprise well before the Vulcan crisis, or then Starfleet rapidly decided in face of that crisis. In the first case, McCoy would certainly be a commissioned officer rather than a cadet. In the second, I guess McCoy could be a cadet and the ship just plain didn't have more than one "real" MD available at launch, what with this being a supposed shakedown cruise.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

...You mean the ranks that don't mean squat when put against real ranks? A make-believe Lieutenant Commander wouldn't be a "senior officer" - he'd be junior to the first "true" Ensign aboard the vessel.

Spock didn't just know nor had time to go through the roster

...Yet serendipitously enough ended up choosing somebody who happened to be a senior officer, rather than a cadet.

Timo Saloniemi

Not to mention that all cadet officers (except Kirk) retained their same rank once they had official assignments.

 

[Merky]

...You mean the ranks that don't mean squat when put against real ranks? A make-believe Lieutenant Commander wouldn't be a "senior officer" - he'd be junior to the first "true" Ensign aboard the vessel.

How many senior officers were there at launch? They took their entire graduating class because they were the only ones available. Whatever rank they had obtained while at the Academy applies. Once they got back to Starfleet, they were right back to being cadets.
How in the hell can you be "commissioned" if you haven't completed your studies yet or are sure to graduate? How can you pull rank with a commissioned officer if you're only a cadet? Hell, if that was the case, I probably could have had a ball walking onto a navy base with my PO2.

Not to mention that all cadet officers (except Kirk) retained their same rank once they had official assignments.

For the nth time, once a cadet graduates from the Academy, most enter in as Lieutenants - there are special cases (McCoy, Kirk) but that is how it goes.

 

[Timo]

How in the hell can you be "commissioned" if you haven't completed your studies yet or are sure to graduate?

Why would you need to be? Somebody like Saavik might well have studied all there was to study for a commission, but would go for a second helping in order to obtain competence for commanding starships. That, too, is right out of real-world military education.

Whatever rank they had obtained while at the Academy applies.

And your argument is that the rank they obtained was "cadet". No matter whether it's "cadet Ensign" or "Cadet Lieutenant Commander", it only amounts to cadet rank in the field, and all commissioned officers (and, around where I live, some noncommissioned ones) would be superior to that rank.

How can you pull rank with a commissioned officer if you're only a cadet?

You can't. Which is why it's so damn unlikely that any of the heroes not explicitly established as cadets would actually be cadets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

How many senior officers were there at launch?

Evidently the Enterprise was staffed...

Pike in command, Spock as XO, Olsen in Engineering, Puri as Chief Medical Officer, McKenna on helm and Hannity on Communications.

Depending on what you call the red uniform we see the cadets wearing... Chekov at Navigation/Ops.

 

[Timo]

Indeed, the Enterprise appeared to have been scheduled for launch, unlike the other ships present...

Although we can't really be sure about that. It might well be that every ship with a full crew had already been scrambled to Laurentius (perhaps as a response to the unrest that Nero had created in the Neutral Zone or in Klingon space), and all the remaining ones including the Enterprise were hopelessly crippled and needed cadets in senior positions. (And happened to have correctly sized commissioned officer uniforms for all those cadets standing by.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Merky]

Why would you need to be? Somebody like Saavik might well have studied all there was to study for a commission, but would go for a second helping in order to obtain competence for commanding starships. That, too, is right out of real-world military education.

Additional training =/= Military Academy.

And your argument is that the rank they obtained was "cadet". No matter whether it's "cadet Ensign" or "Cadet Lieutenant Commander", it only amounts to cadet rank in the field, and all commissioned officers (and, around where I live, some noncommissioned ones) would be superior to that rank.

You obviously don't understand how ranks within a cadet work against ranks once you are commissioned. Of course a comissioned officer would be superior, but obviously that was not the case in this unique situation where even the cadet on Academic probation was instantaneously promoted to position (keyword here) XO on a ship.

You can't. Which is why it's so damn unlikely that any of the heroes not explicitly established as cadets would actually be cadets.

If this was a regular training flight or a stroll into space, it wouldn't have matter. Because this was an emergency with lives lost, the cadets had to act.

How many senior officers were there at launch?

Evidently the Enterprise was staffed...

Pike in command, Spock as XO, Olsen in Engineering, Puri as Chief Medical Officer, McKenna on helm and Hannity on Communications.

Depending on what you call the red uniform we see the cadets wearing... Chekov at Navigation/Ops.

We don't know if McKenna or Hannity are cadets or commissioned officers. It was never explicitly stated so we can not just "declare" it as fact.

 

[BillJ]

We don't know if McKenna or Hannity are cadets or commissioned officers. It was never explicitly stated so we can not just "declare" it as fact.

Hannity is wearing a red field uniform and has one full stripe... gonna go ahead and call him a commissioned Lieutenant. McKenna is obviously suppose to be the regular helmsman or else Pike wouldn't have asked where the particular individual is at.

 

[Merky]

We don't know if McKenna or Hannity are cadets or commissioned officers. It was never explicitly stated so we can not just "declare" it as fact.

Hannity is wearing a red field uniform and has one full stripe... gonna go ahead and call him a commissioned Lieutenant.

So is Sulu...? If the female dress had rank on it, I'm sure Uhura would too.

McKenna is obviously suppose to be the regular helmsman or else Pike wouldn't have asked where the particular individual is at.

They all had ship assignments before boarding. I'm sure whatever the case was, he could have been a cadet or commissioned. We don't know.

and all the remaining ones including the Enterprise were hopelessly crippled and needed cadets in senior positions. (And happened to have correctly sized commissioned officer uniforms for all those cadets standing by.)

That is exactly what happened, pretty obvious big giant "ship assignment" scene. Also, uniforms come in standard sizes -- anywhere -- and its up to the individual to get it tailored to their frame. Then again this is freaken Hollywood, so paying attention to that much detail is pushing it into " over analyzing the movie " territory.

 

[BillJ]

So is Sulu...? If the female dress had rank on it, I'm sure Uhura would too.

Pike specifically tells Uhura to 'relieve the Lieutenant'.

 

[Merky]

So is Sulu...? If the female dress had rank on it, I'm sure Uhura would too.

Pike specifically tells Uhura to 'relieve the Lieutenant'.

Well, point for you. But not the game

 

[BillJ]

I think the best anyone can say is that the Academy stuff is a muddled mess, uniforms included.

 

[Timo]

Additional training =/= Military Academy.

Elsewhere in Trek, it's clear that SFA is the name for the cover organization that takes care of all training, including that of non-academic military personnel, i.e. enlisteds, and of postgrads. For all we know, Kirk (and, in the other movie, Saavik) is taking the Tactical Training School that Lieutenant Ro took.

So is Sulu...? If the female dress had rank on it, I'm sure Uhura would too.

Which goes nicely with her being a commissioned Lieutenant. During the big Academy hangar scene, she's clearly anticipating a permanent assignment that will dictate her future career, not a mere crisis du jour stint.

FWIW, Pike is well aware of the name and face of Spock (who earlier on donned the "instructor" uniform at SFA) and of McKenna, but is at loss to identify Chekov or Sulu. There seems to be a clear division to people Pike was already expecting onboard, and people who were dropped on his lap. That division doesn't go along SFA/non-SFA lines, or commissioned/undergraduate ones. But it exists nevertheless, and the natural explanation would be that he has had some advance warning or previous dealings with those he knows. Including the Vulcan guy who is established as a graduate and who wears the greys. So, it does seem that grey is okay wear for somebody who serves in a key role aboard Starfleet's newest flagship, not just for Academy instructors.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BillJ]

So, it does seem that grey is okay wear for somebody who serves in a key role aboard Starfleet's newest flagship, not just for Academy instructors.

Timo Saloniemi

Which I think fits with my idea that the red and grey uniforms are actually Starfleet dress uniforms.

 

[Timo]

...For the line ranks. And the slightly more elaborate but stylistically very similar grey worn by Kirk's accusers could be the dress uniform for the flag ranks.

Pike would wear his distinct, "regular" flag uniform by virtue of being a pitiful covalescent victim, then. And "regular" line uniforms would be the ones seen on Pike's crew, while the blue uniforms from the Kobayashi Maru simulation would call for some other explanation.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Merky]

Additional training =/= Military Academy.

Elsewhere in Trek, it's clear that SFA is the name for the cover organization that takes care of all training, including that of non-academic military personnel, i.e. enlisteds, and of postgrads. For all we know, Kirk (and, in the other movie, Saavik) is taking the Tactical Training School that Lieutenant Ro took.

But that ain't this Trek.

Man, you must have an amazing imagination. Because it seems like we watched two entirely different movies. Now it goes from Kirk being a cadet to Kirk ~magically~ becoming a ~commissioned~ officer in three years who just happened to coincidentally been ~taking a supplemental captain's course~.

I mean, for all we know, Uhura could have just been giving Spock lessons on the female anatomy for his dissertation on the sexual behavior of human females.

Or maaaaaybe Pike wasn't an instructor at all, he was also a cadet taking extra courses on how to command the Enterprise! Since it's a new ship and all.

I mean, how were we supposed to know?! It's not like the movie sat us down and explained it in detail and told us not to use our common sense.

 

[JarodRussell]

For all we know, Spock could actually be 100% Vulcan, despite having a human mother. It could be very well possible that in hybrid human-Vulcan reproduction, with the help of technology, a 100% Vulcan child can be born. The issue is that nobody actually knows that, they only assumed it. Which is why Spock always said he is half-human even though he never was. That fits the fact that Spock's physical appearance is 100% Vulcan. His blood, his strength, his anatomy, his metabolism, his lifespan, his abilites (mind meld, etc...). Nothing actually indicates that he his half-human. We have also seen contemporary Vulcans with emotions, so Spock having emotional instabilities despite being 100% Vulcan isn't unusual.

For all we know.

Oh, and for all we know, George Kirk might not be James Kirk's father. Robau could have had an affair with his mother.

 

[Merky]

Exactly, we can never know. There's so many possibilities to explain the already explained that we'll never exactly know the truth as to why things happen the way they do in Star Trek.

I mean, why else would there be no rank insignias on the female dress uniform? It's obviously because none of them are ranking officers. Just volunteers in the Starfleet Girl Scout division, earning brownie points by gaining real experience on board a Starship. Totally plausible.

 

[Timo]

The starting point here is that what the writers offer to us (behind the scenes, without ever quite managing to put it on screen) isn't plausible. What the costuming department offers us might be more plausible, though. Anything would be an improvement, after all. Lemonade out of rotten plums, and all that.

But that ain't this Trek.

If tidbits from the Trek universe aren't allowed, then tidbits from yet another, even less related universe (ours) are certainly banned. West Point doesn't exist, there is no USN, and nobody ever wrote those helpful wikipedia articles on how the US military works.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Merky]

The starting point here is that what the writers offer to us (behind the scenes, without ever quite managing to put it on screen) isn't plausible. What the costuming department offers us might be more plausible, though. Anything would be an improvement, after all. Lemonade out of rotten plums, and all that.

But then you threw out whatever the costuming did in the original Trek movies because Valeris just happened to have a costuming error. You're throwing out all original intentions and taking 1 costuming error and then making your "own" conclusions, declaring it as fact, to debunk what I initially said. You, dear sir, are moving the goal post.

The original intentions of the movies stand, they were cadet uniforms.
They were intended to be cadet uniforms.
They were used as cadet uniforms.

But since you want to try and over analyze a costuming error, the difference between Valeris' uniform and Saavik's uniform go beyond the shirt. If you know about the costuming notes for these uniforms, the red strip designates cadet. Valeris lacked this. Saavik was a cadet.

Moving on,

If tidbits from the Trek universe aren't allowed, then tidbits from yet another, even less related universe (ours) are certainly banned. West Point doesn't exist, there is no USN, and nobody ever wrote those helpful wikipedia articles on how the US military works.

You, again dear sir, made the first strike and tried to out rule my real world examples. If you were to weight the two in this conversation, anything post Trek would be useless as it has been completely wiped away with this movie. What would have, could have, should have happened no longer applies while my real world examples, no matter how much you cry and holler, can apply.

Why?

Star Trek has always been modeled after the US Navy, especially in the Trek movies you keep referencing to. So why wouldn't that example not apply if its the main institution that ST has developed its ranks and system off of? Really.

But besides that, whatever you think still doesn't represent what's on screen. You keep making wild speculations instead of accepting the fact that it was the intent. You don't want to acknowledge the system of midshipman ranks or how it is impossible for a cadet to be commissioned at the same time because you want to over analyze and come up with these wild, so far left field I don't even know where you get these, ideas.

Star Trek is not rocket science. It's not some strange creature you got to dissect. It's a god damn science-fiction show/movie written by people who probably couldn't give a flying fuck as long as it's believable enough to work. If you have to spend your time trying to figure out the reason every. single. thing. in the movie then you're just defeating the purpose of mindless entertainment and taking it too damn seriously.