Why did people tune out?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Bad Atom said:
While it is true that DS9 bled viewers during its initial run...

This part of your premise can't be argued with - it's a measurable fact.

I voted for "Oversaturation of Trek." Simply put, most people who watch a given TV series are invested in the characters and actors. Sometimes a spinoff series with new characters works; quite often it does not.

Devoted "Star Trek" fans confused the twelve million or so reliable TNG viewers with Trek fans when a good percentage of them were TNG fans pure and simple. They sampled DS9 for a few weeks and then the exodus began.

"Voyager" did no better than DS9, and continued the downward viewing trend beyond DS9's end.

 

[Photon]

Still, its so much better than Voyager. I have Voyager & DS9 on DVD and rarely put in a V'ger DVD willy-nily. W/DS9, just pick one-there's usually something to glean from it that wasn't noticed before

 

[Good Will Riker]

I voted for ALL. I have heard every single reason above as the reasons as to why all my friends and acquaintances around me that I know (except for myself, who did tune-in) did not tune into "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine."

The "Other" option would be "the strange looking aliens," "too science-fictioney (strange)," "Bashir is an arrogant, smug asshole," etc.

 

[Good Will Riker]

MacLeod said:

Anna Yolei said:
I think it was many things overall, but the weak first season definately did not help. No wonder it was called "Deep Sleep nine" And coming off the heels of a damn popular Trek series? Hell to the no.

DSN's first season was certainly no weaker than TNG's first season.

TNG benefitted from a charismatic ensemble cast. DS9, no matter the number of talent involved, just did not generate that kind of "magic" with the mainstream public. A lot of that had to do with a space station setting, when most viewers expected the USS Enterprise when expecting to watch "Star Trek."

The change came too fast, and was way too drastic for some viewers to handle the transition from a space adventure show like TNG to an on-going space station show set right after a devasting colonial imperialism on an alien world. It's just something the casual viewer or the mainstream audience was not used to seeing at all, and with so many other options on television, they were not willing to stick around and give it a chance to make changes or improve. Except for the diehard Star Trek fans like us.

 

[Orac Zen]

Photon said:
Bajoran Politics (yawn) Bajoran Religion (yawn) Bajorans (yawn)

Interesting, since they're the things I liked about the show. The almost complete disappearance of these elements was among the things that put me off DS9.

Again...to each their own.

 

[Anna Yolei]

MacLeod said:

Anna Yolei said:
I think it was many things overall, but the weak first season definately did not help. No wonder it was called "Deep Sleep nine" And coming off the heels of a damn popular Trek series? Hell to the no.

DSN's first season was certainly no weaker than TNG's first season.

Not even the worst of Voyager and/or Enterprise, TATV included, sucked as bad as TNG's first season. If I hadn't known better by the time I was old enough to watch TNg, I would have given up on TNG right out the bat.

But I think there was a big difference with being the new guy on the block and having the novelty factor in your favor and coming out of the shadow of someone's else's fame. Considering all the strong stories TNG had been doing for the previous three seasons (And a good amount of season six ones as well), DS9 couldn't really get away with having a weak first season and keeping people interested. Neither could Voyager, which had the strongest first season of any modern Trek series and neither could Enterprise, which not only had three modern series to live up to and trying to try into the original series, but two producers with which many fans had last lost respect for.

ETA:

TNG benefitted from a charismatic ensemble cast. DS9, no matter the number of talent involved, just did not generate that kind of "magic" with the mainstream public. A lot of that had to do with a space station setting, when most viewers expected the USS Enterprise when expecting to watch "Star Trek."

I came across an interview that took place around the time of VOY's launch where one of the DS9 actors made a mention of being a little ticked that they never really got much exposure--between being the "little brother" of TNG and VOY being made a media darling to pimp out the fledgling, DS9 hardly got much press its way. I think that hurt its ratings as well.

 

[Navaros]

Combination of the following factors:

- For the most part, Season 1 of DS9 tried to be a clone of TNG with a new cast, so why would anyone wanna watch that. I blame Berman for this cuz after he got busy mucking up Voyager instead then the DS9 show rightfully abandoned this plan. But by then many viewers had already jumped ship.

- Many people don't like Bajorans or wormhole aliens, and understandbly so. There is nothing cool about them and they are obnoxious and have very ugly noses and clothing. Basing a show on alien people that there is no reason to care about does not provide a compelling reason to watch said show.

- Over-saturation of Trek with DS9 and VOY airing at the same time.

- Serialized nature and deep, changing characters are too sophisticated for the average joe to appreciate.

As for the anti-Dominion comments in this thread, I must disgress. The Dominion episodes are hands-down the very best episodes of Trek, period. :thumbsup:

 

[Photon]

Combination of the following factors:

- For the most part, Season 1 of DS9 tried to be a clone of TNG with a new cast, so why would anyone wanna watch that. I blame Berman for this cuz after he got busy mucking up Voyager instead then the DS9 show rightfully abandoned this plan. But by then many viewers had already jumped ship.

- Many people don't like Bajorans or wormhole aliens, and understandbly so. There is nothing cool about them and they are obnoxious and have very ugly noses and clothing. Basing a show on alien people that there is no reason to care about does not provide a compelling reason to watch said show.

- Over-saturation of Trek with DS9 and VOY airing at the same time.

- Serialized nature and deep, changing characters are too sophisticated for the average joe to appreciate.

As for the anti-Dominion comments in this thread, I must disgress. The Dominion episodes are hands-down the very best episodes of Trek, period.

Agree. There is SO much that could have been done those first seasons, that wasn't. Trek fans that grew up on Andorians, Romulans, and Klingons were getting Vedeck Brial and some of those other memorable Trek characters.
I wished the Dominion had been introduced much earlier and the scenes w/the Prophets had been different. Sisko talking to ppl he knew but it wasn't them-WH Aliens. The series didn't catch fire until the Jem'Hadar got cookin'-that's what DS9 should be remembered for-a gigantic war and how the characters reacted and changed b/c of it.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Navaros said:
- Serialized nature and deep, changing characters are too sophisticated for the average joe to appreciate.

I cry foul at this statement. If people tuned out relatively early, it had nothing to do with this, since at first, the stories were all pretty much standalone and you could have really jumped in at any time.

Especially when you look at all of the top (non-reality) shows on right now, all VERY serialized, this comment just screams ignorance and, above all, pretentiousness.

I watched the series all the way through, and own seasons 4-7 on DVD and watch them often enough. I will probably never own seasons 1-3, with the biggest reason being the Bajorans. There's nothing more boring to me on television than when Bajorans take center stage and start talking about their beliefs and causes.

 

[Saxman1]

- At the time I hated Kira always whining about the occupation in almost every ep (seasons 1-2). Older and wiser I feel sorry for the race.

- The show was endlessly pre-empted by WGN sports in Chicagoland

- The show was almost never allowed to stand on its own as the only ST series on the air

- The explosion of cable channels didn't help - more competition

- Voyager offered a more familiar, TNG-ish environment although that was all mucked up in season four when Seven took over the show. I'm surprised they didn't make her captain!

- Due to scheduling on different channels in some markets, DS9 and Voyager were often pitted first-run against each other, further fragmenting the fanbase.

 

[Doomsday]

I can only speak from my personal experience.

I am a first-generation TOS Trekkie, so I have been with the show since the beginning. TOS is still by far my favorite.

That being said, however, I have always given each new series a chance.

I watched all of TNG from the beginning to the end, and came to appreciate it very much, while recognizing it was very different from TOS in many ways.

I watched the DS9 pilot, and was not impressed. I didn't mind the space station setting, I just didn't like Sisko, he seemed to brooding and angst-filled, and I just didn't like him. I was also put off by the whole Bajoran mysticism of that pilot ep, and thought this show was going to be one big new-age-fest, which I wasn't interested in.

So I completely abandoned it for several years.

I watched TNG until it ended, then jumped to VOY. I really really wanted to like VOY and gave it every benefit of the doubt. I stayed with it a couple of seasons, but it just seemed tired and worn out almost from the start. I didn't really like any of the characters, so I sort of tuned out the new Trek series altogether and went back to watching by TOS VHS's.

What made me give DS9 a second chance was these articles I began reading where critics were saying the DS9 was the best written, most original Trek yet, despite its low ratings.

So I came back about season 4 based on that, and I felt by then the show had hid its stride, and I was impressed again. I followed it all the way to the end, and I LIKED the serialized nature of the show. I was frustrated because they pre-empted it so much, and showed it middle of the night sometimes. Even though I had a VCR, sometimes I'd forget to put a tape in and I'd miss an ep.

Anway, when the season sets came out, we started from the beginning and watched the whole show beginning to end, so we could see the development of the characters and the development of the various story lines.

And now, DS9 is my second favorite Trek after TOS. And while I think I am alone in this, I think it is more TOS-like than any of the other series, despite its mostly stationary setting. I got the impression that the production team were TOS fans, and were always putting in TOS references, and complete TOS-devoted eps(like Trials and Tibbleations).

By comparison, TNG (while I still like it) seems very dated, and DS9 still seems fresh, just like TOS still seems fresh.

Unlike may of you, I came to like the Bajoran religous eps, because DS9 was just about the only Trek to ever be respectful of people of faith. TNG, especially, was very hostile to people of faith, despite their claims to prize diversity (it seems diversity doesn't apply to religous beliefs). But DS9 seemed to strike the right balance, in allowing a major character (Kira) to be a very strong person of faith, and that made her stronger not weaker. And it also showed that while organized religion can have its fakes (like Kai Win), while the truth of the faith can still be there.

Anyway, there is lots more I can say, but this post is already too long.

But while I did abandon the show, I did come back, and now it's one of my favorites.

 

[Good Will Riker]

^^^ That is great to hear. I personally consider DS9 seasons 2-7 to be superior in quality to that of TNG seasons 2-7. But as for 1st seasons, between the 2 shows, I give that edge and distinction to TNG's inaugural year for its sense of adventure and the exploration of the unknown oftentimes missing in its later seasons.

 

[Kevin]

I liked it. For some reason I can't not like a Star Trek series. i sit in front of the TV and see like ten crappy episodes and I say, "I am never watching this again!" the next day i am watching it again. But thats besides the point. I liked ds9. I really did. I thought they did a great job. I saw my first few episodes in the middle of the series and i loved em. Then I saw the first couple episodes and i was apalled. I hated the first few episodes. They drove me insane. kiera scared the shit out of me and Quark was weird and sisko... I dunno about Sisko. Also I hated all the prophets and Sisko the emissary crap. Why Sisko? the captain?! Why not a lowly ensign who could be killed off in season five's finale? I just think thats where they went wrong. Other than that it was a great series. They also could have done more deep space traveling.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Boring first season (how much of the pilot does Sisko spend trying to convince non-corpreal aliens of linear time?), weak early episodes, and I'm gonna be mean and say Brook's acting style, but really it was most of the cast were pretty flat from the get-go. But since he was the lead, he's as much "make or break" as anything. Brooks took a good while to warm up as Sisko and for me to warm-up to. I mean, I can see some alternate universe where he quit after season one (like the guy on Babylon 5), but the show continued largely unaffected by his depature and a new lead. Some fans tend to give post-TOS Trek shows a ridiculous free-ride, "it doesn't get good until the third season", which is well past the time general audiences have moved on...and we saw in ENTERPRISE's case that by season 2, that finally proved fatal.

Erratic syndicated scheduling may have played a small part. In the area I lived in, DS9 premiered on a different channel than the one that showed TNG. One station outbid a rival for the rights. So TNG & DS9 weren't a 2 hour block as in a few areas, and no cross promotion during commercials.

 

[indranee]

let's face it, it wasn't TNG. and at the time, people wanted TNG II.

'twas their loss, IMO.

 

[indranee]

Doomsday said:
I can only speak from my personal experience.

I am a first-generation TOS Trekkie, so I have been with the show since the beginning. TOS is still by far my favorite.

That being said, however, I have always given each new series a chance.

I watched all of TNG from the beginning to the end, and came to appreciate it very much, while recognizing it was very different from TOS in many ways.

I watched the DS9 pilot, and was not impressed. I didn't mind the space station setting, I just didn't like Sisko, he seemed to brooding and angst-filled, and I just didn't like him. I was also put off by the whole Bajoran mysticism of that pilot ep, and thought this show was going to be one big new-age-fest, which I wasn't interested in.

So I completely abandoned it for several years.

I watched TNG until it ended, then jumped to VOY. I really really wanted to like VOY and gave it every benefit of the doubt. I stayed with it a couple of seasons, but it just seemed tired and worn out almost from the start. I didn't really like any of the characters, so I sort of tuned out the new Trek series altogether and went back to watching by TOS VHS's.

What made me give DS9 a second chance was these articles I began reading where critics were saying the DS9 was the best written, most original Trek yet, despite its low ratings.

So I came back about season 4 based on that, and I felt by then the show had hid its stride, and I was impressed again. I followed it all the way to the end, and I LIKED the serialized nature of the show. I was frustrated because they pre-empted it so much, and showed it middle of the night sometimes. Even though I had a VCR, sometimes I'd forget to put a tape in and I'd miss an ep.

Anway, when the season sets came out, we started from the beginning and watched the whole show beginning to end, so we could see the development of the characters and the development of the various story lines.

And now, DS9 is my second favorite Trek after TOS. And while I think I am alone in this, I think it is more TOS-like than any of the other series, despite its mostly stationary setting. I got the impression that the production team were TOS fans, and were always putting in TOS references, and complete TOS-devoted eps(like Trials and Tibbleations).

By comparison, TNG (while I still like it) seems very dated, and DS9 still seems fresh, just like TOS still seems fresh.

Unlike may of you, I came to like the Bajoran religous eps, because DS9 was just about the only Trek to ever be respectful of people of faith. TNG, especially, was very hostile to people of faith, despite their claims to prize diversity (it seems diversity doesn't apply to religous beliefs). But DS9 seemed to strike the right balance, in allowing a major character (Kira) to be a very strong person of faith, and that made her stronger not weaker. And it also showed that while organized religion can have its fakes (like Kai Win), while the truth of the faith can still be there.

Anyway, there is lots more I can say, but this post is already too long.

But while I did abandon the show, I did come back, and now it's one of my favorites.

Doomsday, welcome to the board (this is the first time I am reading one of your posts, hence the welcome from me).

I loved what you wrote. and I fully agree, not only about the treatment of religion and faith on DS9, but also about its similarity to TOS. I even find Kirk and Sisko extremely similar in their command behaviour and attitudes.

please write more, when you can, about your ideas about Trek and the various series. have you watched ENT? as a TOS-er, do you hate it? what do you think was missing from it? why do you think it spelled the end of modern TV Trek (for now, at least)? I am also a Niner and a TOS-er. and I concur that neither seems dated as TNG does. VOY -- I have mixed feelings about. I had high hopes for it but they were gutted pretty early on. I still like individual VOY eps, but not the series as a whole.

indranee.

 

[Anna Yolei]

indranee said:
let's face it, it wasn't TNG. and at the time, people wanted TNG II.

'twas their loss, IMO.

That's probably the best explaination of all.

They got TNG II em masse with Voyager. That didn't turn out too good for anyone.

 

[MacLeod]

^well you know what they say Anna, be careful what you wish for you may get it.

 

[Doomsday]

indranee said:
Doomsday, welcome to the board (this is the first time I am reading one of your posts, hence the welcome from me).

Thank you Indranee. I've actually been lurking the boards for a while just reading, it's only recently that I've begun to post myself, and mostly in TOS and Future of Trek(since the new movie is TOS-era). So I am new to this particular forum.

indranee said:
I loved what you wrote. and I fully agree, not only about the treatment of religion and faith on DS9, but also about its similarity to TOS. I even find Kirk and Sisko extremely similar in their command behaviour and attitudes.

I feel the same way about Kirk/Sisko. As I indicated, I was a little put-off by the early angst-ridden Sisko. But in context it made sense when you consider what he'd been through, in losing his wife in the Borg attack. I just wonder if the production team would have found more success by toning that down a little in the FIRST episode.

Anyway, as the show progressed, Sisko not only lightened up, but as you said, he began to resemble Kirk MUCH more than he resembled super-diplomat Picard.

When Sisko punched Q in the face, and Q replies "Picard never hit me!", and Sisko replies "I'm not Picard!", I just cheered! As the show progressed, I saw him making command decisions in the same way Kirk would have in a similar situation, and it was clear in T&T that Sisko admired Kirk as one of his heroes. When he got Kirk's autograph at the end of that episode, it pretty much proved it.

indranee said:
please write more, when you can, about your ideas about Trek and the various series.

Okay, but if I get long-winded, remember, you asked for it!

indranee said:
have you watched ENT? as a TOS-er, do you hate it? what do you think was missing from it? why do you think it spelled the end of modern TV Trek (for now, at least)?

I don't want to spend too much time commenting on ENT because this is DS9 forum, and I dont' want to stray OT, but I will say a few words briefly.

Yes, I did watch ENT. I had a similar experience as with VOY. I really WANTED to like it. I was very excited about it when it was first being talked about and when it was first released. From what I was hearing and reading, I had high hopes that it would "get back to Trek basics", so to speak, and be more like TOS.

I actually liked the pilot, it seemed to have a good mix of action/adventure and mystery, so I was optimistic.

However, the rest of the series, with the possible exception of the last season, was just so bland. I think the biggest problem was the casting of Bakula as Archer. I just don't think he is a particular good actor, and as a result Archer came off as weak and uninteresting to me. When he tried to act tough, he just couldn't pull it off, and it just looked lame, espically compared to Kirk or Sisko. I despised the charcter of T'Pol, she was a horrible actress, and was only there for the catsuit/sex appeal, and I never believed her as a real Vulcan. Overall, the concept was okay, but the execution sucked. Combined with the failure of Nemesis, I do think it almost spelled the end of Trek. But as we are now seeing, Trek never really dies...

indranee said:
I am also a Niner and a TOS-er. and I concur that neither seems dated as TNG does.

TNG seems dated because it is so wrapped up in 80's political correctness, and sensitivity, blah blah blah. The Ent-D looked more like a cruise liner than a ship that could fight a battle, the sets were soft and pastel(I seem to remember Troi's desktop was actually pink...geesh.) Often, Picard seemed to be afraid to make a decision and act because he was so concerned about hurting someone's feelings or something. Kirk and Sisko acted on gut instinct most of the time, and while not always right, at least they DID something. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trashing TNG, it was a product of the sensibilities of its time, a very naive time I think.

I just think it's telling for myself, that whenever I want to watch a Trek ep, it's usually TOS or DS9. I really have to be in a particular mood these days to watch TNG. And even then, my favorite TNG eps tend to be the ones that are most TOS-like, like BOBW, or Chain of Command, etc.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words, and I apologize in advance for the long-winded post.

 

[indranee]

and Yesterday's Enterprise. let's not forget that one

we think very alike here. you could be my TOS/DS9 twin! glad to see you on the board... I love hearing from Original TOS-ers, especially their ideas about the later series.

and you're not long-winded. keep reading the BBS, and you'll get an idea of long-winded.