Why did people dislike the "TNG aesthetic"?

[Cyke101]

My problem is the TNG aesthetic set up an expectation which was never again adhered to, specifically with the bridge.

The idea behind the design of the bridge was that Starfleet in the 24th century was so advanced that many of the ship functions were automated. Leaving aside the fact that such a level of automation clashes with the 1000+ crew (if automated, why do you need so many people?), later shows and ships attempted to portray themselves as more advanced by having more bridge consoles. However, more consoles should equal less automation which should equal less advanced by the TNG formula.

We don't how much automation is going on, however. The TOS was the size of a modern day aircraft carrier, and those ships usually carry thousands of crew, compared to the ~430 of the TOS-Enterprise. The D is several times larger, with much more volume, but still far fewer crew than today's carriers.

As well, TNG never really went in depth about crew functions, but we do know that there was plenty of work allocated to non-ship operations, such as research, diplomacy, and medicine. The D being a hybrid ship and mission of science and exploration could mean more crew devoted to those duties than ship operations.

Carriers have such huge crews because it takes a lot of folks to run a floating airport. Modern cruisers and destroyers have crews of 300-400, which is probably a better comparison.

For Kirk's five-year mission Enterprise that might mean 230 (using Pike's crew size) needed to run the ship and 200 mission specialists/scientists (maybe some of that number is additional security support).

We can postulate using a similar amount to run the much larger Ent-D with greater automation, leaving around 500 mission specialists/scientists/diplomatic corps with 250 family members to get to the 1000 number.

Modern cruisers and destroyers aren't closer to the TOS-E in size. Plus, the fact that much of a carrier's crew is devoted to other operations is sort of my secondary point, and so it's probably true for the E-D as well.

Overall, what I'm getting at is that 1000 people on a ship sounds like a lot, but for a vessel the size of a Galaxy-class, it's probably pretty spacious in there and isn't a sign that the E-D is gasping for automation. (indeed, any given time we see the E-D's corridors, it doesn't have nearly as much traffic as the TOS-E's corridors)

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The ship is a kilometer long and has practically a deck's worth of high tech imagination playgrounds.

What ship is a kilometer long?

You caught me exaggerating. E-D is 642.5 meters. Not quite a kilometer but similar scale. Also wasn't the E-A supposed to be 100 decks?

 

[Tomalak]

(indeed, any given time we see the E-D's corridors, it doesn't have nearly as much traffic as the TOS-E's corridors)

"They really packed them in on these old ships" says Dax.

The refit Enterprise conked out with a Scotty-rigged automation system. The Enterprise-D could be flown (for a bit) by Picard and Riker and the computer in 11001001. A pair of medical holograms directed the computer of the Prometheus to successfully battle a few Romulan Warbirds. It's fair to say automation has significantly improved in the interim - and the original concept of the Enterprise-D was even more advanced.

The original concept was for voice and computer control to be so advanced that the ship would barely need a crew. Early design sketches show the bridge as a huge conference room, dominated by a giant viewscreen and a couple of rudimentary stations. This was significantly scaled back when it was pointed out that voice control wasn't very dramatic.

It's still pretty apparent in the final bridge though, even just in terms of the crew - Sulu and Chekov's helm and nav station has been combined to one conn position, Data's ops seems to combine Spock's science and Scotty's engineering positions on the old ship, and Uhura's communications board has become a little button in the corner of Worf's tactical panel. The Enterprise-D regularly has just three officers actually pushing buttons on the bridge. I always thought that was pretty cool, and showed how powerful the ship was underneath that simple, elegant command centre. The battle bridge had more of a "manual control" aesthetic, so obviously backups were on the ship. But for general duties, manpower could be minimised.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Also wasn't the E-A supposed to be 100 decks?

No matter how hard I try to block that out, someone's just gotta bring it back up....

 

[martok2112]

Also wasn't the E-A supposed to be 100 decks?

No matter how hard I try to block that out, someone's just gotta bring it back up....

If John Logan would've wrote it, the E-A would've had 101 decks.

 

[T'Girl]

Modern cruisers and destroyers aren't closer to the TOS-E in size.

In terms of "living space" they might be closer than you'd initally think. We know (basically) how big the TOS Enterprise is, and what her crew size is as well. In "More Tribbles" Jadzia commented that the crews were really pack in. Jadzia's comment would seem to indicate that the TOS Enterprise isn't as roomy as her exterior might suggest.

If much of the TOS Enterprise's internal volume is occupied with storage, fuel, equipment and machinery spaces, then the crew's work and living spaces could be comparable to a modern destroyer or crusier. The rec rooms were well filled, the corridors had lot's of foot traffic, and TUC saw crewmembers in teired bunks.

 

[xvicente]

>battle bridge

I forgot about that. It all makes more sense to consider the main bridge was intended for everyday report-signing and course-setting (and conferences with the shrink) and the battle bridge with its many buttons was for more serious and urgent business, for example battles.

Since the concept of saucer separation didnt really work for the show (and the character Worf gained unforeseen importance), it was more or less meh, lets direct battles from the Hilton lounge, screw the civilians.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Modern cruisers and destroyers aren't closer to the TOS-E in size.

In terms of "living space" they might be closer than you'd initally think. We know (basically) how big the TOS Enterprise is, and what her crew size is as well. In "More Tribbles" Jadzia commented that the crews were really pack in. Jadzia's comment would seem to indicate that the TOS Enterprise isn't as roomy as her exterior might suggest.

Or that a 24th-Century ship of the same size would have a smaller crew.

 

[Mudd]

People liked the sense of the Enterprise as a spartan, working environment far from the comforts of home for people taking risks on the frontier. TNG's design aesthetic, which was beautiful and which I quite liked, communicated none of that.

 

[Lance]

My problem is the TNG aesthetic set up an expectation which was never again adhered to, specifically with the bridge.

The idea behind the design of the bridge was that Starfleet in the 24th century was so advanced that many of the ship functions were automated. Leaving aside the fact that such a level of automation clashes with the 1000+ crew (if automated, why do you need so many people?), later shows and ships attempted to portray themselves as more advanced by having more bridge consoles. However, more consoles should equal less automation which should equal less advanced by the TNG formula.

Consider Voyager or the Enterprise-E. They both feature far more control consoles than the D did, with the E's bridge being almost wall-to-wall with consoles (how many tactical stations does the bridge of an explorer ship need anyway?

I don't like riding in and defending the 1701-E (because it's far from being my favorite ship ), but the obvious answer to this is "The E isn't an explorer ship, it's a battleship; and Starfleet is at war".

Another quibble of mine: where has this notion come from that the E was a battleship?

It's not as cut and dried as saying "This is a battleship", but certainly this line of dialogue in Insurrection answers your assertion that it's an explorer ship: ie, it isn't.

PICARD: Oh, so they need us to put out one more brush fire. Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?

I won't disagree that there's a chance Picard is simply being ironic. But it is in the context of a scene where the crew are inundating him with requests and orders for the Enterprise to engage in various tactical-like situations. Picard makes the statement, exasperated that the Enterprise's missions have come down to settling territorial disputes and "putting out brush fires" rather than peaceful space exploration. Given what we saw going on contemporaneously over on DS9, I'd say it's a given the ship was primarily engaged in skimishes like the rest of Starfleet seemed to be.

 

[xvicente]

I don't like riding in and defending the 1701-E (because it's far from being my favorite ship ), but the obvious answer to this is "The E isn't an explorer ship, it's a battleship; and Starfleet is at war".

Another quibble of mine: where has this notion come from that the E was a battleship?

It's not as cut and dried as saying "This is a battleship", but certainly this line of dialogue in Insurrection answers your assertion that it's an explorer ship: ie, it isn't.

PICARD: Oh, so they need us to put out one more brush fire. Can anyone remember when we used to be explorers?

I won't disagree that there's a chance Picard is simply being ironic. But it is in the context of a scene where the crew are inundating him with requests and orders for the Enterprise to engage in various tactical-like situations. Picard makes the statement, exasperated that the Enterprise's missions have come down to settling territorial disputes and "putting out brush fires" rather than peaceful space exploration. Given what we saw going on contemporaneously over on DS9, I'd say it's a given the ship was primarily engaged in skimishes like the rest of Starfleet seemed to be.

Picard doesn't know what he wants. In FC when the Ent-E wasn't deployed for the battle he looked at a scientific report and noted ironically that's hardly "worth of our attention"

 

[Tomalak]

^Not really the same thing, is it? He was bemoaning being deliberately excluded from a life-and-death battle because he was not trusted by his superiors in one instance, and complaining that a vast interstellar war has curtailed Starfleet's scientific role in the other.

Although the Enterprise-E's mission in Insurrection isn't anything the Enterprise-D didn't do in the series of course. They ferried diplomats, welcomed new species, and mediated at disputes on numerous planets throughout the seven seasons. Insurrection was pretty much a standard TNG adventure that could have taken place at any point during the seven year run with only very minor superficial changes.

 

[T'Girl]

There's a line in Insurrection where the ship was supposedly going to engage in a archaeological mission, and they were going to miss their weather window. Picard was like "we finally get a fun mission, and now it's slipping away."

 

[Nightdiamond]

The perception that the Enterprise E (and D) is a glorified cruise ship that can be blamed on the show.

Even in FC, the story tried to keep the Enterprise out of a battle scene.

The Enterprise E did see battles, but it was the standard 'fight the villain's big bad battle ship' scene near the end of the movies.

The Enterprise's D bridge was stylish, with the three command seats besides each other and all the extra open space.

It was designed for a TV show that focused mainly on exploration action and adventure and solving problems at the end of the show.

 

[Tomalak]

The perception that the Enterprise E (and D) is a glorified cruise ship that can be blamed on the show.

Even in FC, the story tried to keep the Enterprise out of a battle scene.

Well no, the story tried to keep Picard out of the battle, not the Enterprise. The ship is the only one seemingly capable of holding its own against the Borg cube, so it's clearly not deficient on the battle front.

The widely-available first draft of First Contact makes it pretty clear the new Enterprise is supposed to be a battleship (albeit not exclusively). Braga and Moore write loads of fanwank scenes with the Enterprise going broadsides against Borg cubes, and blasting phaser cannon and quantum torpedoes out of every orifice. It's pretty vulgar stuff actually, that was wisely toned down!

 

[eyeresist]

No, the E was the most advanced starship in the fleet like the D before her. But, the Galaxy class wasn't a battleship either. They were designed to explore, and I think it's much more likely that the E and the rest of the Sovereigns were as well.

This argument only works if the Enterprise can be guaranteed not to encounter any hostile forces. In fact, they could encounter anything while exploring remote space, so have to be equipped to survive. In an emergency, the Enterprise must be able to wield serious military force (and always has been able to).

In "More Tribbles" Jadzia commented that the crews were really pack in. Jadzia's comment would seem to indicate that the TOS Enterprise isn't as roomy as her exterior might suggest.

She only made that comment because there was a ridiculous number of extras in the corridor set.

 

[plynch]

Could someone supply screencaps of the two bridge-lighting approaches mentioned above? (Moodier in S1, brighter and even-er from S3 on.)

 

[Lance]

Could someone supply screencaps of the two bridge-lighting approaches mentioned above? (Moodier in S1, brighter and even-er from S3 on.)

To be sure, S1 and S2 had their fair share of flood-lit scenes. But it was more a case of them variating it a lot more.

This screencap from "Angel One" shows the bridge being lit in a generally pretty interesting way, using as many 'natual' realistic light sources as possible (similar to what they later did in Generations).

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120808192807&path-prefix=en

It gets lit that way a few more times in the first couple seasons, such as again in "Lonely Among Us", despite on that occasion it being a fully manned bridge.

From the third season onwards, there were basically two different lighting scemes they used for different occasions: all the lights on, or all the lights off. They rarely did anything as subtle as the blending of different natural light sources as seen in the above screencap (at least until Generations, where the set was once again lit with this approach in mind).

 

[plynch]

Thanks.

 

[Mk_Sn]

Heh I like the look of TNG precisely because it looks safe :P