Why did Dr. Korby commit suicide?

[TREK_GOD_1]

@TrekGod: Data has been proven, in a court of law, to be a sentient life form. Indeed, he wouldn't have been allowed to enter Starfleet if he wasn't one. So the thought that no android can be a life form has already been debunked.

Ruk, Korby and his creations were not considered life forms at the end of the mission. Indeed, they were seen as a threat, and the fact Korby's "suicide" was the result of his realization that he was not a living being sealed that correct judgement, so Timo's "racist" accusation is wholly inapplicable.

 

[kirkfan]

@TrekGod: Data has been proven, in a court of law, to be a sentient life form. Indeed, he wouldn't have been allowed to enter Starfleet if he wasn't one. So the thought that no android can be a life form has already been debunked.

Ruk, Korby and his creations were not considered life forms at the end of the mission. Indeed, they were seen as a threat, and the fact Korby's "suicide" was the result of his realization that he was not a living being sealed that correct judgement, so Timo's "racist" accusation is wholly inapplicable.

Korby didn't leave a suicide note so we don't really know what his motivations were. Besides, it's a catch 22 situation, IE in order to care about not being a living being you kinda have to be a living being in the first place. Just as the tin man wouldn't long to have a heart if he didn't already have one in the first place. Same thing applies to feelings, people that don't have them, are not concerned about having them...

 

[johnnybear]

I think Korby's essence was inside the android but his mind was overcome more by the alien science than his human emotions and it was only when he realised this that he decided to destroy himself! Kirk saying that Dr.Korby was never here was to credit the fact that Korby wouldn't have wanted to have been thought of as a machine!
JB

 

[kirkfan]

I think Korby's essence was inside the android but his mind was overcome more by the alien science than his human emotions and it was only when he realised this that he decided to destroy himself! Kirk saying that Dr.Korby was never here was to credit the fact that Korby wouldn't have wanted to have been thought of as a machine!
JB

That seems more likely than Korby killing himself because he wasn't Korby. Kinda like what Dr Ira Graves did with Data. And that didn't work either.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Korby didn't leave a suicide note so we don't really know what his motivations were.

Its pretty clear that right up to the moment he was challenged/injured by Kirk that he was still operating from a deceptive program. The only thing to push the android to destruction, was a challenge his programming of lies / agenda could not solve.

Besides, it's a catch 22 situation, IE in order to care about not being a living being you kinda have to be a living being in the first place.

Not at all. Hard evidence (a mirror, really) forced Korby to reach the only conclusion left: the false nature of his existence was based not only on the means used to create him, but how that creation was directly responsible for his inhuman actions, hence Chapel's:

Don't you see, Roger? Everything you've done has proved it isn't you

His programming addressed, then solved the problem posed by Chapel's assessment: an artificial thing masking itself as human, yet committing inhuman acts is something--anything--other than all that it means to be human.

 

[kirkfan]

Korby didn't leave a suicide note so we don't really know what his motivations were.

Its pretty clear that right up to the moment he was challenged/injured by Kirk that he was still operating from a deceptive program. The only thing to push the android to destruction, was a challenge his programming of lies / agenda could not solve.

Besides, it's a catch 22 situation, IE in order to care about not being a living being you kinda have to be a living being in the first place.

Not at all. Hard evidence (a mirror, really) forced Korby to reach the only conclusion left: the false nature of his existence was based not only on the means used to create him, but how that creation was directly responsible for his inhuman actions, hence Chapel's:

Don't you see, Roger? Everything you've done has proved it isn't you

His programming addressed, then solved the problem posed by Chapel's assessment: an artificial thing masking itself as human, yet committing inhuman acts is something--anything--other than all that it means to be human.

But you need to have feelings to be affected by any of that. If you don't have feelings then your reaction would be, OK so I am artificial, so what? Who cares? We tend to anthropomorphize things, paradoxically even those to which we refuse the quality of being human. If he is a machine then he shouldn't care about being a machine.

 

[T'Girl]

I don't understand Starfleet. First they give Data a rank and a bunch of decorations for valor, over the years. And after all that they start disputing his SENTIENCE!

On Starfleet and Data's sentience, Data's sentience was (iirc) in doubt prior to his entry into Starfleet, he went before a board or some such, the decision at that time wasn't unanimous.

Just as today, there's no such thing as settled law.

You and I come from a species of sapient beings, our possessing this attribute isn't in question because of the group we are a part of. Data isn't apart of any species, just a handful of individuals.

Have you ever heard of a toaster being awarded the purple heart?

We occasionally give purple hearts to dogs.

Military working dogs are always one rank above their handlers too.

Data has been proven, in a court of law, to be a sentient life form. Indeed, he wouldn't have been allowed to enter Starfleet if he wasn't one.

How do we know that non-sentient beings aren't allowed into Starfleet?

Its pretty clear that right up to the moment he was challenged/injured by Kirk that he was still operating from a deceptive program.

Similar perhaps to the deceptive program that Data's "mother" was operating under?

 

[Timo]

You still haven't addressed the accusation of "racist" that you brought against Nurse Chapel, Timo.

Did you miss it? Chapel dropped her boyfriend because it turned out he had mechanical innards. That is, he was physically distinct. That's no different from dropping your net date when it turns out he's black, or in a wheelchair.

Now, there currently doesn't exist a race of humans that would characteristically be wheelchair-bound, but there certainly exist bloodlines that have hereditary illnesses. Roger Korby is by necessity part of a race that has to rely on mechanical bodies in order to exist, and Chris Chapel hates him for that. (And perhaps for other things, but Korby supposedly always was an emotionally distant researcher intent on finding inhuman ways of making mankind's future brighter. Nothing about that ought to surprise Christine!)

An android is not a race, it is an artificial replication of something that in the grand scheme--is beyond technology. Further, in the 23rd century, no human commonly has relationships with androids. Chapel cannot be "racist" in rejecting a piece of plastic as a boyfriend.

And niggers are animals, property, and unfit to date with humans. The analogy is disturbing at every level of detail...

The mere idea of her engaging in some "relationship" with artificial Korby is as abhorrent as the acts of the real life people who purchase those robot "love dolls."

Or those who have sex with paraphlegics. Or those who date niggers.

That Korby didn't have a soul is a racist conclusion drawn by our "heroes", with no basis in the adventure itself. Everything Korby does or says is human indeed, in good and bad.

Ruk, Korby and his creations were not considered life forms at the end of the mission. Indeed, they were seen as a threat, and the fact Korby's "suicide" was the result of his realization that he was not a living being sealed that correct judgement, so Timo's "racist" accusation is wholly inapplicable.

Naah. It's a fitting and hitting accusation, and just highlights the fact that the heroes are pretty disgusting people, no better than the supposedly educated people who once argued niggers don't have souls.

Certainly Korby himself comes off as one of the most humanlike of the characters involved, perhaps a step or two behind Ruk and ahead of Andrea, and miles ahead of Kirk or Chapel.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[1001001]

You still haven't addressed the accusation of "racist" that you brought against Nurse Chapel, Timo.

Did you miss it? Chapel dropped her boyfriend because it turned out he had mechanical innards. That is, he was physically distinct. That's no different from dropping your net date when it turns out he's black, or in a wheelchair.

Now, there currently doesn't exist a race of humans that would characteristically be wheelchair-bound, but there certainly exist bloodlines that have hereditary illnesses. Roger Korby is by necessity part of a race that has to rely on mechanical bodies in order to exist, and Chris Chapel hates him for that. (And perhaps for other things, but Korby supposedly always was an emotionally distant researcher intent on finding inhuman ways of making mankind's future brighter. Nothing about that ought to surprise Christine!)

An android is not a race, it is an artificial replication of something that in the grand scheme--is beyond technology. Further, in the 23rd century, no human commonly has relationships with androids. Chapel cannot be "racist" in rejecting a piece of plastic as a boyfriend.

And niggers are animals, property, and unfit to date with humans. The analogy is disturbing at every level of detail...

The mere idea of her engaging in some "relationship" with artificial Korby is as abhorrent as the acts of the real life people who purchase those robot "love dolls."

Or those who have sex with paraphlegics. Or those who date niggers.

That Korby didn't have a soul is a racist conclusion drawn by our "heroes", with no basis in the adventure itself. Everything Korby does or says is human indeed, in good and bad.

Ruk, Korby and his creations were not considered life forms at the end of the mission. Indeed, they were seen as a threat, and the fact Korby's "suicide" was the result of his realization that he was not a living being sealed that correct judgement, so Timo's "racist" accusation is wholly inapplicable.

Naah. It's a fitting and hitting accusation, and just highlights the fact that the heroes are pretty disgusting people, no better than the supposedly educated people who once argued niggers don't have souls.

Certainly Korby himself comes off as one of the most humanlike of the characters involved, perhaps a step or two behind Ruk and ahead of Andrea, and miles ahead of Kirk or Chapel.

Timo Saloniemi

Timo
On one level I can appreciate the point you're trying to make, and the passionate way you're trying to make it.

HOWEVER...the "N word" is absolutely unacceptable and uncalled for. It certainly isn't required to make your point. It's vulgar and offensive. You could have just as easily said "African-Americans".

Please do not use this language again. Ever.

Thanks.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

You still haven't addressed the accusation of "racist" that you brought against Nurse Chapel, Timo.

Did you miss it? Chapel dropped her boyfriend because it turned out he had mechanical innards. That is, he was physically distinct. That's no different from dropping your net date when it turns out he's black, or in a wheelchair.

People have repeatedly pointed out that your way here of describing what happens in the episode is contrary to what actually happened in it. From the episode transcript:

CHAPEL: Don't you see, Roger? Everything you've done has proved it isn't you.

We don't need to try to guess what was on Chapel's mind, because she told us right there and in a way that justified Kirk's line:

KIRK: Doctor Korby was never here.

In other words, Chapel isn't dropping anybody. It's just that the android was never her fiancé.

In order to make the statement that Chapel rejected the android simply because he was an android, for one thing we'd have to assume that the android behaved exactly as Roger Korby would have under similar circumstances. The thing is, though, that was not the case. Although there were a great many similarities, in key ways the android behaved unlike Roger Korby. Chapel noticed the discrepancy way before discovering that what appeared to be Roger, too, was really an android.

CHAPEL: Roger, what's happened to you? When I sat in your class, you wouldn't even dream of harming an insect or an animal. Their life was sacred to you then.

And anyway, we'll never know exactly what sort of relationship Chapel might or might not have had with the Korby android, because the android destroyed itself before Chapel ever said what she wanted going forward.

 

[Timo]

HOWEVER...the "N word" is absolutely unacceptable and uncalled for. It certainly isn't required to make your point. It's vulgar and offensive. You could have just as easily said "African-Americans".

Please do not use this language again. Ever.

Point taken, and will do. Although personally I strongly feel that "African-American" is even more disgusting an expression, as it indicates a whole nation is unwilling to face either its history or its present... Why label half of your citizens as "half-foreigners"?

Also, I fear that had I used that expression, many here would have gotten the (definitely false) impression that it is my personal conviction that African-Americans are animals etc. After all, if I'm using polite and civilized language about it and all...

In order to make the statement that Chapel rejected the android simply because he was an android, for one thing we'd have to assume that the android behaved exactly as Roger Korby would have under similar circumstances. The thing is, though, that was not the case.

I don't feel there should be anything "simple" about the issue. Racism always is rationalized (and often is rational, too, in a certain narrow-scoped sense, but that's a different issue), and various excuses will be found for what is in fact fundamentally just natural revulsion.

As for "similar circumstances", we cannot tell whether this would be "the case" or not, as the circumstances are fantastically unique to start with. Roger Korby is facing considerable challenges, and coping with them - by being Roger Korby or not, we cannot tell for sure, but Chris Chapel would have no real point of comparison for making the judgement, either.

And anyway, we'll never know exactly what sort of relationship Chapel might or might not have had with the Korby android, because the android destroyed itself before Chapel ever said what she wanted going forward.

...A decidedly un-machinelike thing to do!

Except, of course, in the presence of Jim Kirk. Several machines self-destructed when Kirk argued that they were not serving humanity even though they thought they did. (And I'm not speaking about platters here.) Korby in his machine form still argued he had mankind's best interests as his guiding star. Lanrdu, likewise. But mankind (or its alien equivalent) was given no real say there.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I'm through arguing against this ridiculous point.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

People have repeatedly pointed out that your way here of describing what happens in the episode is contrary to what actually happened in it

Agreed. It is an entirely false notion to describe Korby as part of a "race." As presented, he was simply an artificial copy--not the living being of Chapel's past. Further, using anyone of African descent & paraplegics as a comparison to the rational criticism of a "relationship" with a robot--a machine--is simply nonsensical.

In other words, Chapel isn't dropping anybody. It's just that the android was never her fiancé.

Exactly. Korby was no more a living being than Ruk...or the Enterprise computers.

 

[kirkfan]

In light of the fact that Chapel was never engaged to korby in his android form, wouldn't the senior staff of the Enterprise D be duty bound to tell Data's mother's husband that he is married to an android?

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

What I would like to know, is why (as Kirk stated) two previous expeditions failed to find Korby? When the Enterprise hailed continually, he finally responded with no uncertainty about who he was or his location. Was he hiding his presence the first two times?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Perhaps Korby was waiting until a starship like the Enterprise came along, which would make it easier for him to implement his plan to replace important people with android duplicates. The previous expeditions might not have had suitable ships to achieve the goal.

 

[kirkfan]

^ Perhaps Korby was waiting until a starship like the Enterprise came along, which would make it easier for him to implement his plan to replace important people with android duplicates. The previous expeditions might not have had suitable ships to achieve the goal.

Well, for an android, he wasn't very efficient about it, was he?

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

^ Perhaps Korby was waiting until a starship like the Enterprise came along, which would make it easier for him to implement his plan to replace important people with android duplicates. The previous expeditions might not have had suitable ships to achieve the goal.

That's a good point...but it's lucky for Korby that three searches were attempted at all. If no one came looking for him, he'd be stuck on an ice ball planet with nothing but a dream. Talk about 'all dressed up with no place to go'!

I forget now, but did they say what was he doing on Exo III in the first place? Was he another Robert Crater, just exploring ruins?

 

[kirkfan]

^ Perhaps Korby was waiting until a starship like the Enterprise came along, which would make it easier for him to implement his plan to replace important people with android duplicates. The previous expeditions might not have had suitable ships to achieve the goal.

That's a good point...but it's lucky for Korby that three searches were attempted at all. If no one came looking for him, he'd be stuck on an ice ball planet with nothing but a dream. Talk about 'all dressed up with no place to go'!

I forget now, but did they say what was he doing on Exo III in the first place? Was he another Robert Crater, just exploring ruins?

On the plus side he may not have killed himself.

 

[johnnybear]

^ Perhaps Korby was waiting until a starship like the Enterprise came along, which would make it easier for him to implement his plan to replace important people with android duplicates. The previous expeditions might not have had suitable ships to achieve the goal.

That's a good point...but it's lucky for Korby that three searches were attempted at all. If no one came looking for him, he'd be stuck on an ice ball planet with nothing but a dream. Talk about 'all dressed up with no place to go'!

I forget now, but did they say what was he doing on Exo III in the first place? Was he another Robert Crater, just exploring ruins?

On the plus side he may not have killed himself.

Maybe it was Andrea that shot them both?
JB