Why did Data lie to Geordie about the phaser discharging during transport when about to kill Fajo?

[hxclespaulplayer]

I mean beyond "Data mimicing humanity".

 

[Tosk]

Data did not lie to Geordi in The Most Toys.

 

[Mojochi]

It was Riker who greets Data on the transporter pad, after the Fajo kidnapping

Mr. O'Brien says the weapon was in a state of discharge...

Perhaps something happened during transport, commander

Now I'll assume the OP is inquiring about why Data didn't openly admit he'd fired on Fajo, because ultimately it isn't an outright lie. It's an omission, in a report to a superior, that Riker clearly shows he is suspicious about.

It's important to note that Riker never follows up on that suspicion, nor does it make much sense for him to be overly probing about the incident, because any sensible person would have to know what was going on down there. Data had been premeditatively kidnapped, & was clearly attempting to escape captivity

As to my opinion? Data was not acting as an officer. He was a captive. His exchange with Fajo is not a matter of Starfleet duty. It was personal. In other words, none of Riker's damn business, & I'm sure he knew that, which is why he didn't pursue the issue.

But the deeper meaning? Why would Data not want anyone to know he'd fired? Because it was a very questionable position he was in. Even though he had the upper hand at that moment, he was still in captivity, & Fajo still represented a threat to innocent lives, unless Data took action (Many people debate about what action he should've taken. I support Data knowing what the best course was)

But regardless, it is a complicated situation, in which Data was forced to not only take deadly action, but take an action which many people would know goes against some of his basic programming (which is what the prior conversation had been about)

So we are faced with the question, is it in Data's best interest for everyone to know he could ignore such a basic code as "Do no harm" when things get rough? Given his history of difficulty with personal liberty, his child custody loss, his rights having been adjudicated, etc... I'd say he has good reason to doubt that Starfleet would be sympathetic to him, such that they could overlook him killing someone (Even justified as he was) if it drew up doubt about his programming (Which that exchange certainly does)

Data chose to bypass what should be a pretty absolute moral code, because it was the only option. Nevertheless, if it were to become a matter of record that he could do that, it might cause a ripple of doubt in him that leads down the path of him being stripped of rights once again. I'd say it's fair for Data to maybe want to avoid having to place his trust in people giving him the benefit of the doubt, when they have so frequently failed at similarly respecting him in the past

Since Data never actually killed anyone, it's wise for this little blip to stay off the radar imho. He doesn't need any more people doubting him. The guy can barely get a fair shake as it is imho

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

I totally agree with Mojochi here.
Given that Data's a android and is considered as a mere object by some Starfleet admirals (like Haftel) because of his nature, I can totally understand his decision to keep his decision to shoot Fajo to himself. What would have been seen as a difficult moral choice and a survival decision for a biological person, could have been interpreted by 'synthephobic' people as a programmation glitch when it comes to Data. He would have risked to be deactivated and maybe even dismantled for further analysis. I truly doubt everyone in Starfleet is ready to accept that, with android personhood and free will, also come potential for borderline moral decisions and even (in Lore's case) potential malevolent actions, just like in humans.
I don't think it was an easy decision for Data, though. Shooting Fajo totally contradicts his usual views about respecting life and avoiding to harm others. And hiding the whole incident probably put him in a situation plagued with contradiction. Much like any human being would have been through in the same situation !

 

[Qonundrum]

It's the best form of proof that Data actually had sentience. Unless he took into account what was said earlier in the episode and causing a logical impasse with random number generator acting as a coin toss to prevent overload since Noonian Soong had watched all the old episodes of Star Trek where Kirk would use a logical impasse to destroy countless machines. Fajo was not necessarily incorrect in repeating Data's own oft-spoken claim that he's an android with no emotions. Not to mention the Federation lacks the death penalty. Riker clearly puts on the "I don't believe you" face in response to Data's nonsense about something happening during transport (erm, no, not when nothing happened before that episode... or since...)

In other words, the episode was most likely playing out an impossible scene with straight face and leaving it at the very end because there are not many outcomes to that incident but the story's writer really wanted to pull such a brainboner.

 

[Leviathan]

One might speculate that he processed logically to act with lethal force to protect the rest of the crew since Fajo threatened those lives.

And to be fair, something DID occur during transport....Data pressed the trigger and the transporter stopped the beam.

 

[Mojochi]

And to be fair, something DID occur during transport....Data pressed the trigger and the transporter stopped the beam.

That's why I always tell people Data didn't lie. He just omitted things from his report at that moment

 

[Leviathan]

That's why I always tell people Data didn't lie. He just omitted things from his report at that moment

Indeed. He simply gave a half-assed report to a supervisor per McCoys Law (the bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe).

 

[Mojochi]

Indeed. He simply gave a half-assed report to a supervisor per McCoys Law (the bureaucratic mentality is the only constant in the universe).

I actually took it as the passionless, android equivalent of a "None of your business" type remark. I mean Data wasn't really on duty here. His actions were outside his role as an officer, so any questioning by his superior, in that context, is moot imho

 

[Leviathan]

I actually took it as the passionless, android equivalent of a "None of your business" type remark. I mean Data wasn't really on duty here. His actions were outside his role as an officer, so any questioning by his superior, in that context, is moot imho

Agreed, and precisely the sort of reply one should give to a bureaucratic (i.e. moot) inquiry. I tried responding to them with a brick to the head...but began to run short of bricks.

 

[2takesfrakes]

It may be that Data was also unsettled and uncertain about what had just occurred. How many times in STAR TREK, or any TV show, really, where something uncomfortable comes up and someone's axed, "... has this happened before?" and then the answer's most usually, "yes, before, when ..." But there had to be that previous experience, unreported for whatever reason. It never really seemed to matter, just as long as it gives the new situation gravitas. I just put Data's denial in that "previous experience" category, where that's how it got treated. Not, necessarily, that it was a set up for further occasions of it ...

 

[Mudd]

Look, Data just tried to kill an unarmed dude because Data was really pissed off and decided to mete out some instant android justice.

He wasn't in the mood to deal with Geordi processing that shit just then, so he lied his ass off.

Wonder if Fajo was feeling lucky?

 

[Timo]

That Data should have a "do no harm" policy/programming is not particularly plausible, either as a thing, or as a reputation Data had gained. He's a Starfleet officer, a man trained to kill and to give orders to kill. If there existed suspicion that he might fail to perform, out of moral conviction, his career should be in jeopardy.

It is a somewhat different issue that Data would no doubt radiate all the "harmless dude" signs to his colleagues, out of sheer self-preservation. Everybody would intellectually know he's a dangerous machine who could rip them to bloody shreds without breaking a sweat, and moreover a machine of unknown origin and specifications. Instinct would be what matters, though, and Data would strive to appear harmless, gullible and a bit silly, just as Soong intended (even if the striving is all of Data's own clever doing in practice). When the push came to a shove, though, nobody should be allowed to doubt that Data would shove, and through duranium walls if need be.

I actually took it as the passionless, android equivalent of a "None of your business" type remark. I mean Data wasn't really on duty here. His actions were outside his role as an officer, so any questioning by his superior, in that context, is moot imho

In that case, though, Riker ought to fall on him like a wall of bricks. Data is a civilian criminal offender then, and Riker is the law out there.

Conversely, Data is the law out there, whenever in uniform (and this is not physically dependent on him actually wearing the uniform - he's not on leave or anything, merely declared MIA). It should be within his power to execute criminals and enemies of the state, within the specific confines of the law. It's a question of mere details whether the law would be on his side in gunning down Fajo, either as Data's role as a policeman, or as his role as a soldier. We may freely argue it would be, absent other evidence: while UFP law as such does not even believe in the concept of punishment at times, Fajo may be a foreign national, an enemy combatant, an offender in a special category of some sort, or otherwise fair game. Mere "fired first at an officer (of the law)" may seal his fate, regardless of the technical specs of "firing".

Yet separate is the issue of whether Data really had to fire. He's Superman, with many explicit superpowers - he could have brought Fajo to his knees by a wide range of means, including simply grabbing him, and then telling the swarms of goons that their salaries would not be forthcoming if they attempted any action other than sailing to the nearest starbase for surrender. He is no longer held back by the presence of hostages (and he can prevent the undeniable existence of potential further hostages, such as those goons, from interfering), and OTOH there is no issue of self-defense as Data is immune to all of Fajo's actions beyond the now moot blackmail.

That he did choose to fire would give him pause once the situation passed. Not necessarily because he had been about to do something illegal or forbidden or wrong - but because he had been about to do something as such harmless that simply revealed new things about his person. I can't see this situation much affecting Data's handling of further similar occurrences, or his policy towards killing: he would have made cold legal/tactical calculations that would undoubtedly be correct to the sixth decimal point, and would keep on doing so. Whatever emoting came on top of that would merely be for effect - after all, Data firmly believes all his emoting is just for effect and not "real", until he gets the proper sort of pixie dust and can start treating his perfectly measured emotional reactions as "true".

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Data is a victim & captive, not an offender. It wouldn't even matter if he had vaporized Fajo right then, because Fajo is telling us that's Data's only option. Data too is telling us that's his only option, & both Varia & Fajo have also told us, throughout the episode, that Data has no other option to his escape. It's not illegal or wrong for Data to kill in defense of himself or others. It only supposedly goes against some instilled pacifistic programming guideline.

So I'll just say this to everyone, being that we're drifting into this territory... again. That Fajo drops his little energy gun, after murdering with it, doesn't mean he's unarmed. They are still captive aboard his ship. His ship is his weapon. It & he are still very much a danger to everyone aboard it, all of whom, according to Varia, Fajo holds in some form or another of aggravated servitude, or captivity. The man is running a technologically outfitted prison ship, with a lethal hand, and nothing indicated in this episode suggests otherwise, or that there's any other way around that.

Any concocted opinion of what is true of Data in this situation does not trump what the narrative is saying. 0.00% of all the suppositional malarkey that attempts to explain why Data should be able to get away without killing Fajo, doesn't change the fact that everything in the episode is telling us that none of it is possible. The show is not required to supply an explanation for every possible theory a viewer has. All we need know is that they've specifically prepared to hold Data. They know him right down to how much of every constituent element is in him. There were deliberate preparations made to indefinitely hold a Soong android in captivity aboard that ship.

Any other option that someone might think is at Data's disposal, is imagined by them, in opposition to what's shown. We know Data is in a situation where his only option is to kill Fajo, & if someone wrongfully abducts & imprisons someone else, the latter is justified in whatever casualty befalls their captors, in order to free themselves.

 

[arch101]

Perhaps a moment of humanity? (Asimov probably had a fit when he saw the scene)

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Look, Data just tried to kill an unarmed dude because Data was really pissed off and decided to mete out some instant android justice.

Lol what ? ?
First, Data at this point is not capable of being 'pissed off', at least not like us humans intend it. So there's a better chance he took his decision to shoot Fajo after analyzing the situation's outcomes.
Second, how is Fajo unarmed ? ! He admitted he possessed a fair amount of deadly, illegal weapons. He didn't hesitate to coldly kill his long term mate. He has a whole ship of potential hostages, mostly people he took away from their worlds and families. How exactly is he 'unarmed' at all?

 

[Mojochi]

Yet separate is the issue of whether Data really had to fire. He's Superman, with many explicit superpowers

I think this time, this will be the only point of yours I will address directly, dude, because I can't even say I get what you mean here. Data is most assuredly not a superman by any imposed standard that goes beyond possessing a few better-than-human abilities, which makes him only one among countless, in the Star Trek universe, who can boast similarly. He's not omnipotent. He's not wholly unstoppable, & given that he's dead, he's not immortal

He is merely a fallible being that has on numerous occasions been outwitted, out-maneuvered, out-gamed, subjugated, etc... & in this particular instance, it has been made perfectly clear imho, that whatever abilities he possesses have been thoroughly accounted for. I'd be fine allowing you the opinion that this is a poor episode for failing to satisfactorily explain away every discrepancy you might have, for why the events happened as they did (Everyone's entitled to an opinion)

Nevertheless, I however don't accept any proclamation that because someone may consider unmentioned aspects dissatisfying, that somehow this is an invitation to rewrite the narrative shown, to suggest he is in some way a murderous person. There is no evidence of that, & much to its contrary, not only in this episode, but all of them. He just had no choice.

 

[Twilight Phoenix]

Everybody would intellectually know he's a dangerous machine who could rip them to bloody shreds without breaking a sweat, and moreover a machine of unknown origin and specifications. Instinct would be what matters, though, and Data would strive to appear harmless, gullible and a bit silly, just as Soong intended (even if the striving is all of Data's own clever doing in practice). When the push came to a shove, though, nobody should be allowed to doubt that Data would shove, and through duranium walls if need be.

I don't know if I understood your post correctly at all. When reading it, it sounds like you're describing Data as some lethal 'killing device', whereas the whole series proves the exact contrary.
Just because he's strong enough to bend steel bars with his bare hands doesn't mean he'll go around killing people...so how exactly is he more dangerous than other fierce and powerful fighters like Worf ? And since I'm naming Worf : his irritability, his aggressivity and his lack of patience make him much more unstable and dangerously unpredictable than Data, IMHO. That event with Fajo was the only moment in the whole series (not taking movies into account here) when Data took the logical decision to kill someone (in short : without being hacked like in Descent). He's been given the chance on countless occasions but never did it, except in The Most Toys. Or if he did, I honestly need to rewatch when, because I don't remember.
And I honestly doubt Noonien programmed Data's behaviours to be innocent just in order to hide his 'dangerousity'...The more I think about ST Androids, the more convinced I am than their personalities is mostly built by experience through heuristic algorithms, so I don't even believe Noonien programmed Data's innocent and clumsy personality. I think Data programmed himself by trial and error.

 

[Timo]

Data is a victim & captive, not an offender.

There is no real-world precedent to one excluding the other. Victims, just like any other folks, may be punished for the wrongs they committed, with their victimization taken into account as a mitigating factor if applicable.

It wouldn't even matter if he had vaporized Fajo right then, because Fajo is telling us that's Data's only option.

That's not for Fajo to decide. The court will do that for Fajo, Data and the late Varria, although traditionally it won't bother to prosecute and punish dead people.

It's not illegal or wrong for Data to kill in defense of himself or others.

And again, it usually is, in the real world. It is a tad difficult to see why Trek would differ from this in this particular direction, rahter than, say, promote the rights of the offender even further.

It only supposedly goes against some instilled pacifistic programming guideline.

Which shouldn't be mistaken for any sort of Asimovian no-kill-I rule, or for unwillingness to vaporize when so commanded. But yup.

They are still captive aboard his ship. His ship is his weapon.

And like any other weapon, it can easily be wrestled from him and used against him. Data would be in an exceptionally good position to do so - he's in an airlock of some sort and could make Fajo suck vacuum, say.

It's not for nothing that Fajo is desperate there, gambling on his own life in order to regain the upper hand.

Any concocted opinion of what is true of Data in this situation does not trump what the narrative is saying.

Of course it does, though. If the writer failed in his job to create the intended narrative A, it defaults to the narrative B that he actually wrote.

Make no mistake, we're not in any sort of a debt to the writer here. He does art, fine. He gets paid for it, fine. His family may starve if we don't support his art, fine. But what he wrote is a fairly minimal contribution to a franchise that gets audiences for being a franchise, not for what he wrote. It's not as if I don't enjoy what he wrote - it's just that I'm under no obligation to enjoy 100% of it, or to divine "intent" from the parts he wrote badly, least of all pay respect that intent regardless of the divining.

The show is not required to supply an explanation for every possible theory a viewer has.

It's the other way around. If you write about Superman, and the villain loses his kryptonite, it's your task to tell why the villain might triumph nevertheless. The default "theory" or narrative is that Data always wins, even if he's too nice a guy to flaunt it much. Stories diverging from that have certain obligations.

Mind you, the story becomes not a bit lesser for the writer so utterly failing to support his own interpretation. Quite to the contrary, there's moral pondering involved now where the original intent may have been to merely set up a mechanistic situation where the hero has no choice.

All we need know is that they've specifically prepared to hold Data. They know him right down to how much of every constituent element is in him. There were deliberate preparations made to indefinitely hold a Soong android in captivity aboard that ship.

And we know pretty much how that works - we see the tricks, all of which hinge on blackmail. And then there's this dramatic turn where it all collapses, basically because Fajo overplays his hand and no longer holds any of the cards.

if someone wrongfully abducts & imprisons someone else, the latter is justified in whatever casualty befalls their captors, in order to free themselves.

Where did you get that absurd idea? I hope you never try to act upon it - you may well be facing the death penalty.

Data is most assuredly not a superman by any imposed standard that goes beyond possessing a few better-than-human abilities, which makes him only one among countless, in the Star Trek universe, who can boast similarly.

So Data is Superman. One out of many, but what does that have to do with anything?

He's not omnipotent.

But we have an explicit list of certain of his powers, one of which is even explicated in the very episode: the power to fire a vaporizing sidearm. That sidearm has many uses, including the one again explicated in the episode - of blackmail with lethal force. It's just a matter of directing the lethal force correctly.

All of Data's other explicated abilities just come on top of that. Getting the airlock open is a triviality that basically only requires his great speed, his technological knowledge and his independence from a source of breathing air, say.

He is merely a fallible being that has on numerous occasions been outwitted, out-maneuvered, out-gamed, subjugated, etc...

Absolutely no disagreement here. He's certainly being outmaneuvered, made to think he is lacking in options when the audience very well knows he is not lacking in those. And there is nothing wrong with this dramatic turn of events.

It's just that the whole drama would go away if we ignored our knowledge of Data's options and pretended he indeed had none. He would then have no choice to make, and plots running on automation are inane.

I'd be fine allowing you the opinion that this is a poor episode for failing to satisfactorily explain away every discrepancy you might have

But that is certainly not the case. Rather, the episode is much better than what the writer intended for our knowledge that Data indeed would have had options aplenty.

...to suggest he is in some way a murderous person.

Didn't you just successfully argue he was? That is, he is gullible enough to think he might need to be murderous, even when the stopping-to-think option might open further options for him.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Timo]

I don't know if I understood your post correctly at all. When reading it, it sounds like you're describing Data as some lethal 'killing device'

Which he is. Just watch him go in "Descent", say.

whereas the whole series proves the exact contrary.

No, it just shows him not killing. He's like the Horta there, except he doesn't launch his career by first killing and then abstaining.

Just because he's strong enough to bend steel bars with his bare hands doesn't mean he'll go around killing people...so how exactly is he more dangerous than other fierce and powerful fighters like Worf ?

Exactly that way - he's even stronger than Worf (as demonstrated in "Datalore", say).

It's simple math: the ship is full of potential killers, and Data is the most powerful of them all, by a wide margin, even. Will these folks kill? With Worf, there's no telling - he's always murdering people and then failing to apologize later. With Data, it's quite a plot twist when he does kill.

Our heroes fear Worf, at least at first. They do not fear Data. And the point here is, Data has made an effort to bring about this situation, otherwise any sensible person would fear him a lot. He acts harmless. Heck, we later learn he was built to act harmless, because folks were so awfully frightened by his predecessor designs which lacked this built-in act.

And since I'm naming Worf : his irritability, his aggressivity and his lack of patience make him much more unstable and dangerously unpredictable than Data, IMHO.

Which is exactly what I'm saying, too. Lon Suder was more dangerous than Data, too, despite not having any superpowers whatsoever. This despite Data being the better killing machine.

That event with Fajo was the only moment in the whole series (not taking movies into account here) when Data took the logical decision to kill someone

We can't judge his logic unless we make assumptions. But he logically killed left and right when, say, gunning down the Borg or firing at Klingon ships. The event with Fajo is exceptional in that it may have been the only one where he killed without logic.

That is, without the sort of logic that the audience might agree with, or the Starfleet regulations might agree with. Which is why "The Most Toys" is good writing, because the sympathies of the audience are allowed to fluctuate. When the villain has his evil empire crumble around him and resorts to pleading with reverse psychology, we are allowed that brief moment where the roles might be turned and the hero might become the vile one. And when that does not happen, there's payoff.

And I honestly doubt Noonien programmed Data's behaviours to be innocent just in order to hide his 'dangerousity'...

No problem with that. But it's one of those things from "Datalore" that borders right between explicit and implicit: the claim is basically made by the villain of the piece and may be a lie, but we can see the second adult son of Soong is different from the first, and specifically on the issue of more innocuous behavior (the disarmingly silly exterior is there in the homicidal first son already).

The more I think about ST Androids, the more convinced I am than their personalities is mostly built by experience through heuristic algorithms, so I don't even believe Noonien programmed Data's innocent and clumsy personality. I think Data programmed himself by trial and error.

I don't think there should be a conflict there. Free will is something we can believe in despite genetics, falsely or not. My take is that Data was built to program himself by trial and error into a harmless fellah - that he only gradually outgrows his built-in aspects and becomes his own person, not within his first two minutes or twenty years, but within the scope of TNG the series. Which is how Soong intended it to happen, hence his "emotion chip" rite of passage and other timed events he hints at, such as the dreaming.

Timo Saloniemi