Poll Why did Data fire?

Since the audience already knows Data is Superman, though, there would be dozens of tricks the android could do to make Fajo beg on his knees. See previous pages.

No chance of that - Data had already demonstrated in prior episodes how he can defeat entire armies single-handedly. And much lesser heroes have sabotaged enemy starships before and survived, leaving Fajo high and dry for the authorities (or vengeful former customers) to pick up.

Not in any real legal system. Those in power always retain the right to prosecute overeager self-defenders.

And given what we know of Data, there would have been no limit to the means available. That Data picked this specific one over others is what prompted the poll in the first place.

Yet previous Trek stands witness to future penal management systems turning mass murderers into nice citizens. That's the whole point of having 'em systems. And it's their business if the saving of Fajo's soul ultimately fails.

Timo Saloniemi

 

Data demonstrates similar reasoning when dealing with Lore, whom he essentially executes, and the anger and skewed morality Lore introduces to him via remote in Descent had to be present in Data already in some way. Data is not a robot, he is an android..there's an important difference Beyond shape.

 

...And regardless of shape. We have seen petulant, vengeful and amorous AIs that were not shaped anything like humanoids; it's just too bad we never really saw in action an android body that would have featured a nice and disciplined robotic mind.

(Until, supposedly, in the new movies where we have the traffic cop of STXI and the medical assistants of STID.)

As for Lore, since he, too, is an android, execution isn't a big deal for him. It's supposedly quite reversible, as it was done (and undone) to him once before already.

Timo Saloniemi

 

I think he did feel something, the same thing that made him go talk to Fajo in the brig. He fired for ethical reasons though.

I wonder if Fajo was trying to commit suicide by cop, maybe out if guilt. Telling Data he won't stand up to Fajo because of Data's lacking emotions seems almost calculated to goad Data into firing.

 

Unless how you're putting it is that you have a 2-way choice of either letting people die, or using the means at your disposal to stop that, even if those only means are death inflicting means, which was the situation Data was in.

Not really, because by assuming someone who had demonstrated a willful disregard for sentient life will change, given the chance, is not allowing for the possibility that such a change may only come after more life has been lost. Maybe he would've come to realize a value for life eventually, but maybe he also could have destroyed more people before that ever happened. Again, if you have no other choice but a deadly means at your disposal, to stop further loss of life, you use it. They only other choice Data had besides eliminating Fajo in that moment was indefinite slavery.

Nah... I'm pretty sure Fajo ain't bluffing. He just viciously executed his most trusted crew member, & claimed with an utter lack of compassion that he'd continue to do worse. You should probably take that guy at his word imho

 

Guilt is one emotion we can be sure Fajo will never have.

 

Mojochi, there're always many choices to any solution, not just two!
The plot shows this issue like there aren't any other choices but there're always as many as you can imagine.

What I'm trying to say is that you're making a choice FOR HIM before something is actually happening at this present time, you're assuming what he should've been doing in the FUTURE, what his actions and attitude should've been in the future.

This is like trying to justify the death penalty to me, there's no excuse. No one can choose over other being's death even if we're talking about the personification of the devil itself.

 

"The plot shows" It's a tv show, dude. The plot is what it is. If they have it stated (& pretty well demonstrated imho) that this is his only option, then Monday morning quarterbacking is not a valid criticism. They wrote it the way it is. He chose the only viable option given to him, & if we suspend disbelief in order to watch a futuristic space show at all, then a little can be afforded to its characters values when the story puts them in these situations

No, I'm assessing the variables of the situation. If Data wants freedom, and doesn't want to see more people die, then he must put an end to the guy that is a threat to those things, right then, while he has what might be his only opportunity. It doesn't matter that the guy might not kill people in the future. It matters that he HAS killed people, & is saying he has no problem doing it more to get what he wants. You don't get the luxury of valuing that guy's life over those he might be harming, simply because killing is wrong. Leaving open the possibility of him killing indiscriminately is more wrong

No, it's not the same as justifying the death penalty. It's analogous to a kill or be killed, in a wartime type situation. If you don't kill the guy that is going to kill you or yours, then you are derelict in protecting the lives you can protect. I'm as pacifistic as it comes Bro, but even I know that there ARE times that in order to save a life, you must take a life, & in those cases, you weigh whose life you're saving against whose you're taking. It's ugly business sometimes, but in this case it's much clearer, as the life you're taking is an active indiscriminate threat to innocent victims

 

...The story might have been relevant from that "kill or get (yourself or innocents) killed" moral standpoint had the central character been anybody but Data. By the choice of the character, the writers abandoned such relevance, though, as Data cannot lose the fight.

Although conversely, any character who could lose would face no dilemma and would not hesitate to pull the trigger. So no drama there that way, either.

Timo Saloniemi

 

How so? I may be misunderstanding you, but how is it he can't lose? He can't disable the force field. He has only the one lethal weapon at his disposal. He has only this one narrow window of opportunity, & he doesn't know anyone is coming for him. If he expects to escape captivity, without further loss of life, there isn't any choice really

I thought they did a fair job of demonstrating that Data was pretty well boxed into an either/or predicament. Is it perfect? Nah, but we always have to suspend some disbelief where the android guy is concerned. Maybe this time he isn't fast enough, or strong enough, or able to compute his way out of the problem. We've certainly been there before

Heck, Picard has literally had to tell him personally that it is possible to make no mistakes & still lose

 

Unfortunately, the one weapon that Data has at his disposal is Data. He is immune to most threats imaginable and is not facing rayguns at the time. He can play a dozen dirty tricks to quickly render Fajo unconscious, starting with depriving him of oxygen (which Data doesn't need) by opening the door to outer space right next to him. But that's indeed just for starters, as the audience is well aware of Data's general resourcefulness. Heck, he just demonstrated it by outmaneuvering Fajo this far.

Data "boxed in"? It would take much more than what we got - Data was boxed in during "Ensigns of Command" and proceeded to singlehandedly beat an entire planet to submission, without having to kill anybody. Here he is in an environment that is much more vulnerable to his blackmail attacks against infrastructure, and facing fewer inhibitions on going semi-nonlethal (T-100: "He'll live."), plus he's not running against any sort of a clock (he lives forever, and if anybody is gonna come calling, it's the cavalry rather than a further threat force).

In order to truly box Data in, the writers would have needed to introduce a more intimidating crew of goons for Fajo at the very least. From what we see here, there are too few of those, with little in the way of effective anti-Data weaponry, and with good odds of them turning against their disgusting boss at the slightest promise of better future. And Fajo just threw away the only weapon he ever held, the life of a person Data cared about.

The episode takes the "Data in jeopardy" concept to such lengths of timidity that it comes out from the other side: it appears the only thing keeping Data captive is his good nature and his desire not to hurt even those who deserve a few fingers less. That Data chooses not to play it nice any longer is a choice he can make at his leisure, with all sense of threat gone at the death of Varria and all the aces in Data's hands from now on.

Timo Saloniemi

 

With what access... whose security codes? Ultimately, this is where an ounce of suspension of disbelief could be useful for enjoying a good episode. Unlike the Enterprise, which Data has been shown easily commandeering, because he is both Data AND has authorized access, this is Fajo's ship. Data has no access to sensitive systems that we know about. He only escapes the room he's been held in through Varria's assistance, & now she's dead.

Nobody else is going to help Data, after that, and Fajo has gone to extensive lengths to own Data in captivity. They know every amount of trace elements to leave in the debris field where they faked his death. I'm pretty sure they'd know what measures would be necessary to hold him in captivity

He had help, help who got killed because of it, a narrow window of opportunity, and her access

He wasn't boxed in. He was stymied by human behavior, & he didn't beat an entire planet. He simply had to make a point in favor of evacuation that couldn't be refuted

Data cares about any loss of life that Fajo might enact in trying to possess him. Fajo knows this. THIS is Fajo's weapon, knowing that Data is a good person. Fajo threatens another of his crew moments after Varria's death. Data can choose allowing others to die, which he won't do. He can choose submitting to captivity, which he shouldn't do, if he doesn't have to, or he can choose to use the weapon he's obtained on Fajo, to end all the threats

Varria is not the only person he'd be unwilling to see die at his expense. Fajo is using his immorality to bully Data. Ultimately, we should never make the mistake of assuming Data can't be beaten, least of all if his opponent is specifically applied to the task of beating him at any cost. TROI has beaten Data, ok? It's not out of the realm of possibility, is all I'm saying lol

 

He's got all the time he need to plan a breakout. This awful ending should've not been this way if he'd been patience enough and smart enough to work everything out, end of story.

 

But he had only 1 ally, & she determined when the breakout would occur, & made him hurry through it, so she could stay ahead of Fajo. Now maybe he could've told her "No, not yet" but he figured she was his best chance at escape, so he didn't, & once he committed to following her, he began down a path of ever limiting options, until he only had one available to him, killing Fajo

 

Data is TNG's go-to man for security codes. Barring those, he could just push the door open with his superhuman strength. That's what defines Data as a character. Providing him with a raygun to help him complete such a job is just icing on the cake.

It's an uphill battle for the writers, is all. If you want to trap Superman, you better be prepared to address every single complaint from the know-all audience, and not merely as regards his superpowers from Issue #232b, because everybody knows in advance that Superman always wins.

(Of course, feeble Wesley should always win, too, by Wheaton's contract, but then the writers would need to address the specifics of trapping Boy Genius.)

So he's loose both physically and figuratively. And we have seen what Data is capable of when let loose. Later on we will see how good he is at co-opting hostile hardware, to the extent that when he's a bit slow in turning the systems of a Romulan battleship against itself in ST:NEM, it's a cause for merriment.

And he's so good at that, too, that inciting mutiny in Fajo's crew shouldn't be much of a chore. Those goons have lost already: they are facing a death machine while trapped inside a tin can that (barring James Bond villain tricks) can't exceed warp three. Fajo rules them through fear, so Data's combination of superior fear and promise of salvation should be irresistible.

Indeed, and that's the whole point of Data's captivity. But that captivity is over now: Data is at liberty, and Fajo is at his mercy. And we know Data is the one for mercy - so him needlessly opting for something else is a dramatic twist where we learn more of the character of Data, not an inevitable move the simpleton machine logically has to make.

I mean, come on, it's the classic of action flicks: the villain thinks he has the hero cornered despite the hero holding a gun - but at the last moment the hero turns the gun and fires at an unexpected target (airlock controls, say) because he's not the one cornered. It's the villain, because of his one-track mind and self-congratulatory planning that makes him blind to what he himself has wrought.

It's also what we should expect of other hero characters, and indeed we see both Riker and Picard do that exact thing in later adventures. Here we are at an embarrassing juncture in that Data shouldn't even need the gun to do the classic; our only excuse is that he is a machine, perhaps indeed rivaling the villain in the inability to think outside the box. But it appears that's the very thing the writers were not trying to convey.

The dramatic issue here is that Fajo already had his shot. Data's powers have been through the cinch point where the villain appears to be winning - something that usually happens because the hero is surprised and confused. But that will pass, and for Data, it has passed and a moment of clarity should restore his powers, not further limit them.

The "window of opportunity" stuff just doesn't work here. No clock is ticking, and even if one were, Data's clock speed is higher than Fajo's... Dramatically speaking, we already know Data is going to surprise not just Fajo but us. But it's a big surprise that the big surprise choice is an emotional rather than logical one.

Timo Saloniemi

 

But he's not loose. He's just out of his cell. He is still on Fajo's ship, with no access to security systems. Fajo knew their location. It's reasonable to figure, that in wanting to hold Data, he'd likely have force fields up to block exits, like he has around himself. It is Fajo's ship, & it's most likely on lockdown, to prevent Data leaving

Maybe he's more experienced at Romulan systems than Fajo's... & he doesn't even have a console to access. The point is, we don't know why Data is penned in, but it appears he is.

While still on board Fajo's ship, there's no reason to assume that

Not an opportunity window of time, but of options. He's run out of options. They have indicated that the weapon he got his hands on is the only option available to him, and short of writing your own narrative, there's no reason to doubt it. We don't even know if the shuttle he was about to escape on is still operational. As long as Data is on Fajo's ship, there's no reason to think Fajo has lost any of his advantage, except in that he let Data get ahold of the disruptor

And this is the fine point of it. That is the exact opposite of how to deal with a know-it-all audience. The more you play that game, the more likely there'll be a rabiit hole to step into, & the less likely you'll have a compelling story, instead of just a bunch of exposition. You circumvent the nitpicking by creating simple & vague situations instead, wherein the unknown variables should lead the audience to suspend disbelief in favor of the characters, for the sake of the story.

Data is not infallible, & in order to tell a story that's about a moral dilemma, & not one that's about how you defeat Data, you paint the scenario with as broad a brush as possible, so to create the least amount of avenues by which to nitpick. We don't have to know every move Troi made to beat Data at chess, only that it is possible

 

Wholeheartedly agreed - you can't do it piecemeal. But you can do it with overkill. Introduce kryptonite. Make it very clear that Fajo holds something like an off button for Data in his forcefield belt. Don't reveal the hand of the villain, either, unless you want it played against him. Although of course you ultimately want exactly that to happen.

The situation here was certainly vague enough. It's just that the one thing specific, Fajo assuming that Data is constrained by his programming/ethics, is finally challenged in this climax scene - but when Fajo is proven wrong, the situation fails to plausibly channel Data's newfound liberty of action into just a single direction. With that one change, all bets should be off.

Nothing wrong with Data choosing to exercise his liberty for killing Fajo. It's great that he makes a choice that raises eyebrows in-universe and causes heated debate out-universe. But if that choice is supposed to be the only one available to him, this not only flies against our Superman/action hero expectations, it undermines the drama because a choice that is no choice is no longer interesting at all.

Timo Saloniemi

 

Fajo doesn't assume Data's ethics. It's what Data tells him, & the object of the episode is to see an evolution in Data beyond that programming, when faced with a situation that's defies it logically. I still don't see how it's a failure, even with his new found liberty to do harm, he's still left having to do it, as no other viable options have been presented

But there is a choice. Be the Data that accepts his limitation and yields, or be the Data that forces himself to grow by tackling what might have been a wall to him before

In a weird way, Data owes Fajo a debt of gratitude. Without this very cruel & unforgiving lesson, he might never have known he could exceed his programming and make a choice that while harmful, is also ethical. I thought it was very interesting. You just have to be a little forgiving if every loophole isn't entirely sealed up. They only get 42 minutes

 

The Federation is supposed to be beyond executions of criminals, with rehabilitation being the sensible approach. In this case, Fajo threatened to kill more people. All Data needed to do was stun him, then restrain him until rescue. And then Fajo could be brought up on charges for his crimes. But he cajoled Data. You could see it. There's a brief moment where we do see a hint of anger in Data's face and he does pull the trigger, albeit a tad too late being caught in the transporter beam. So as I see it, the logical choice was there but Data let an emotion influence his decision. He did revert back to normal mode once returned to the Enterprise. However... he lied to Riker. "Perhaps something occurred during transport, commander." We know full well he was about to fire the weapon at Fajo. [LINK]
The only possible "caveat" I can see is that Data attempted to threaten Fajo with a mimic of firing the weapon (without intending to really do so) but then the startling effect of suddenly being transported caused him to flinch and pull the trigger for real. But then he would have admitted that. When asked by Riker about the weapon, "I had Fajo disarmed and was attempting to control him with the threat of the weapon. The sudden transport at just the right timing may have caused an accidental discharge." But of course, he said something much more ambiguous.

 

He had no ability to do so. The Varon T Disruptor is a brutally lethal weapon, banned by the Federation. It doesn't stun, & Data had no other methods to stun Fajo, given that Fajo had a protective forcefield around himself