Why did Chakotay Choose to be with seven instead of janeway?

[Lance]

Besides the fact that Mulgrew didn't want to see her character, Janeway, being weaken by a love affair with her 1st Officer - or whoever aboard... even if repeatedly, Mulgrew certainly didn't hide that her choice would have been Tom Paris with whom Janeway has more in common that with Chakotay -, I think that her working relationship with Robert Beltran* - which seem to have deteriorated troughout the season - also had to play in her deision not to let Janeway ending with Chakotay in Endgame, even though their journey was just over.

I have to say I'd never heard this before, re: Beltran and Mulgrew having tension off the set. Although I do know for a fact that Beltran has said he was only interested in the part in the first place because it'd give him a chance to work with Geneviève Bujold, and that he was somewhat disappointed when the part of Captain Nicole Janeway was recast (and renamed), so maybe he and Mulgrew had bad vibes from the start.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Mulgrew and Beltran were doing it.

Don't know how long it lasted, but after they "broke up", Mulgrew didn't want Janeway going where she had already been.

 

[Lance]

I've seen that do the rounds here at the BBS, but I've never been sure if it's straight up fact or just a rumour.

If it's true it'd explain some things.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Oh yes, please, I can't wait (unless, of course, you are being ironic). I think Chakotay is great and can't wait for others to confirm that

Alright, Katinka, sit right back, with your favourite beverage, as I get all of this blasted typing in, on this and one, or two, other subjects. Despite what my appointed position as Rear Admiral might indicate, I hate typing, with a heart-felt passion! Anyway, here we go ...

"Tatoo" was one of Chakotay's most meaningful episodes and Robert Beltran climbed right in and delivered a very fine performance. As a matter of fact, and I could be mistaken, but I remember reading an interview with Beltran, where he noted that he never learned Spanish enough to be conversational, in it. That his own attitudes about his heritage were kind of mirrored, in a way, by Chakotay's. And the whole thing of his relationship with his father. How Chakotay wasn't all that interested, really, in his father's interests. On ALL of these levels, I, too, relate to the episode of "Tattoo." My father has been a hunter, all of his life, since he was a boy. Same with his brothers and my Grandfather, whom I deeply admire..My father was disappointed in how his only son had no stomach for killing Wild Animals - preferring to shoot them with a camera, and drawing them. Whereas me mum is proud of her Irish heritage, knowing Gaelic and the whole bit ... she probably believes we're descended from Irish Kings. I'm aware of, and interested in, my heritage, but it's not a driving force in my Life. So, "Tatoo" really touches on a lot of things that are very personal for me, and Robert's personal interest in the episode is reflected in his performance of it, which I'm quite fond of.

Then, look at an episode like "Coda," where Chakotay's lost the woman he loves. I mean ... she's dead, right there in his arms as he carries her off. There's thunder and lightning, everywhere, the wind's whipping up a mile a minute ... it's all so very Shakespearian! It's heavy duty stuff ... and, once again, Robert Beltran's got nowhere to hide. He delivers the goods and it's completely believable, how Chakotay's going apeshit, trying to $ave his favourite dream ... from dying. He's performing CPR, and the whole bit, with The Kiss of Life. Hovering over her broken body, he even shouts out, in despair, "don't you dare die on me, Kathryn!!!" I'm not the most emotional of Men, but I'll tell you what, it gets me misty-eyed ... every time! That's the power of performance ... you know? Robert Beltran's a very capable actor, in that regard. When he's engaged in the material, he climbs up in it and he's right there, in the middle of it.

Now, did Mulgrew and Beltran get it on? How can we ever know that, with certainty? It was decades ago and none of us were there. But just because it's the simplest explanation for why she didn't want Chakotay and Janeway getting it on, it's not the only one, or even the best fit, for that matter. As has already been noted, Kate was married to a politician, even then. She might not have wanted to taint his career with celebrity gossip. And it's not like Mulgrew had any hope of hiding from the Media, she HAD to address questions like, "... why isn't Janeway jumping Chakotay's bones?" What if there were no real answer to that? What if the actors just didn't get along? Does she tell the press that? Or ... what? It's an awkward position to be in, explaining to complete and total strangers who aren't even in the Industry you work in, why you're making certain decisions. AND to have your superiors take an active interest in the way you answer ... that's got to be tough. I don't envy anyone being in that position. But ... I don't think we ever did get to the Truth of the matter.

How much to sell out feminism?

What's your price to sell out masculinity?

(I have no idea what that means!)

Well ... I'm not at all uniquely qualified to speak on issues related to 'feminism.' But, uh ... I can say this much on it, because I know this for a fact: "empowered" females are often under the mistaken impression that being 'hard' is being 'strong.' And that is simply not the case. Unfortunately, they frequently don't want to believe that. As a result, their insecurities persist and hold them back.

Selling out Masculinity? Hell ... it's been $old. Money's already changed hands on that count. Guys out there are using Apricot Facial Scrubs and Mineral Baths under the mistaken impression that A) this shit actually does something, in the first place and B) that this is going to get them a sexy woman. Part of it's borne, actually, in this mentality of "Instant Gratification." They believe they'll look hot to women by not doing nothing more than smearing greasy coconut cream on their face. Whereas exercise is painstaking commitment that takes extended periods of time to deliver on its promised potential. But once it does ... boy, does it ever! These guys won't get to know that, though, because they want a quick fix; they'd rather be delusional. So ... there they are, laying in bed with cucumbers over their eyes and posting their shiny noses on the Internet, the next morning ... in hopes of making that First Catch of the Day.

 

[stardream]

The parts in Tatoo where Chakotay could not relate to his father are fine. I don't think many people have a problem with that aspect of the episode.

I could do without the whole "Native American Indians were a primitive backward people until white people from outer space helped them" idea. Perhaps it would have been better if the Natives had just come from outer space and this was their original home. Silly but not as silly as some other ST plots.

 

[Guy Gardener]

When the aliens showed up, "white people" were primitive too.

The weird thing is that the aliens were too stupid to leave, probably a crashed ship or a broken distributor, which is why their children are half human, and their children were even more human.

The aliens were #### ups, who assimilated into the tribe... Or they banged a few humans and left.

 

[stardream]

But the white people got smart on their own. They didn't need outside help. (sarcasm emoticon here)

 

[Guy Gardener]

(Sarcasm noted.)

Well, it all depends on what you mean by "white people".

Dozens of countries at war with each other along regional, political and religious lines for centuries.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions. It's ironic, how those making VOYAGER took it upon themselves to try not to offend Native Americans, by hiring what they believed to be an authority on the subject to kind of check their facts, as it were ... only to be deceived, in so doing, and managing to piss them off, anyway. It's clear that VOY means well, where he's concerned, but it's also awkward, at times -- particularly with the fictitious Rubber Tree Tribe he belongs to, in an attempt to be all things to all Native Americans. The Rubber Tree, of all names, though ... I don't know, it sounds kind of 'off,' to me. Why not The Black Paw Tribe, or something that evokes a sense of mystery and speaks well? Yet, they're careful to make sure that Chakotay's tribe never used bows & arrows, in an attempt to distance them from Hollywood cliché. In a way, I kind of feel bad for the show, because they WANT to do the right thing, on the other hand ... they don't know what the hell they're doing, either.

My father has collected Native American arrowheads, all of his adult life, from sites where new malls are being built, that sort of thing. So, I've always had a mild interest in their culture, which is another reason I like CHakotay, as a character. I never viewed him as a 'token' character, but I would've preferred it if he'd just been a modern-day American. He didn't live on a reservation, or any of that sort of thing. He just happened to be Native American, that's all. But I have to say, I appreciate his attempts at spirituality. The Vision Quests did give CHakotay a mystique, like he could be made aware of A Greater Power, in this way. It was handled piss-poorly and verged on embarrassing, at times. But again, I could see the attempt being made to invest the character with ever-more interest. It's just regrettable that the show didn't make a greater effort to authenticate Chakotay's heritage and culture. Today, it would've been so much easier, I think. Michael Spears, for example, has always seemed very knowledgeable and available for discussion of all things Native American.

 

[Katinka]

ll so very Shakespearian!

Thanks, 2takesfrakes - even I, die-hard Chakotay fan that I am - wouldn't have come up with that. I am glad to see his performance appreciated. I should have done as you suggested an had a glass of Prosecco while reading your post, however, it was 7 am and tea seemed a more acceptable beverage choice at that time.

As to the actors relationship, professional or otherwise, of course we don't know and I feel more than vaguely creepy to even speculate about it (not what I normally do, really!) but somehow I can't help wondering how she went from

And I adore [Robert Beltran] on a personal level. There is absolutely nothing about that man that I
do not like. There's a loveliness to his nature that I respond to completely. He truly is my anchor, in many ways, and I think vice versa.

Source: [FONT=Helvetica]http://www.littlereview.com/getcritical/trektalk/kate2.htm[/FONT]
and

I remember the first time I met Robert Beltran. I thought I’d do this for nothing!

(she even wrote this in her memoires) to her later rather unflattering comments like that he is lazy actor (www.trektoday.com/columns/briefing/beating_beltran.shtml), etc.
Oh well, we won't ever know, and I can totally live with that

 

[locutus101]

Mulgrew and Beltran were doing it.

Don't know how long it lasted, but after they "broke up", Mulgrew didn't want Janeway going where she had already been.

Honestly, I don't see how one is relevant to the other. Good actors know the difference between their real lives and the lives of their roles.It's not uncommon that people who hate each other play lovers or vice versa.

 

[Guy Gardener]

You just called Kate Mulgrew a petty person and a bad actor.

You're expressing an ideal, meanwhile I'm reciting a popular urban myth.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Katinka, I'm sure that Kate's opinion of Beltran has waivered, over the years. And then, there's the Common Sense Notion that when VOY was on, everybody had to make it like they were one, big, happy family. I've never heard stories, for example, that even the 2nd Bananas of TOS bitched about Shatner, during the series' run. It was only after ... and even then, was mainly attributed to STAR TREK Conventions, believe it, or not. Egos being stroked, and so forth. There may be some of that behind Mulgrew's later views.

At the same time, dissing Beltran's acting talent could be borne, also, from the simple fact that his career faltered whilst she's continued doing well, for herself. I really hate to put it in these terms, but ... it doesn't really benefit her, does it, to praise Beltran, under those circumstances. She gets nothing out of it, whereas, he's the one who kind of needs some support to pull his career out of oblivion. He's done alright onstage, and maybe critics notice this, but the vast majority of the public don't. I'm "saying" all of this, yet, please believe me ... I LIKE Beltran, as a performer. I'd love to see him essay some roles I like, but his career has never been under my control. It is what it is ...

And, of course, it would be very classy for Kate to be gracious in her praise of her former cast members, but, again ... she's trying to sell books and convention appearances and stirring up some mild controversy greases the wheels in doing that. If Beltran had some surprising breakout role that the Public - even MORE surprisingly - took to and got excited by, that relaunched his career, would Kate's assessment of his abilities upgrade? I wouldn't care to hazard a guess ...

 

[2takesfrakes]

I just wanted to add one more thing about Robert Beltran's talents and/or abilities, as they related(d) to VOY:

Any of us can understand the frustration at work that Robert might've felt, at the time. But the problems with Management speak to Management. Beltran should've never allowed himself to start phoning in performances, just to collect a paycheque. The entire World saw that, not just his Betters, or Industry Insiders, or even his co-stars.

I was raised Roman Catholic, sent to the finest Catholic Schools, where we had it imparted upon us to drive ourselves to succeed. Along with the Certain Knowledge that everything we do has our name ALL over it ... and to make sure we always deliver nothing but The Very Best. Also, the way I see this, personally, if Beltran's lucky enough to have gotten what he wanted - a steady paycheque and television's limelight, for 7 years - then shut up.

It's like winning the Lottery and complaining about the taxes, or some stupid shit like that. To hell with Job Satisfaction - never let them see you sweat. You're a star! Show them and the world what you can do ... not what you feel like doing, because you're disgruntled. Because, that's what people are going to remember, seeing that Season after Season. Beltran should've taken the opportunity to hone his talents and increase his net-worth. Make the world say, "... what's this amazing talent doing wasting his time with VOYAGER?" He's always had it in him.

 

[Katinka]

So, we are done with the rewatch and I finally saw Endgame today for the first time many years, maybe ever, I can't recall. I have read so much about it that I think I saw it before, but not sure I actually ever did.
Anyway, here is my latest theory on the whole C/7 disaster:
If we believe the actors (Beltran and Ryan) even 4 episodes ago in Natural Law they were instructed to play their little outing onto a alien planet without any future romantic involvement in mind. (I am pretty sure they both said that in interviews, I have the sources somewhere ...) Then nothing happened for two episodes on the romantic front and in Endgame there is that 3rd date in the Cargo Bay, the kiss and all the "in transporter range" stuff. Makes no sense to me (and many others) if one looks at this from a interpersonal relationship perspective. No romance writer would write it that way, no build up, no dancing around each other, etc.
Where it makes sense is that it was one of the (few?) ways to provide Janeway an incentive to go with the Admirals proposal to get the crew home early. Here we are with like 90 minutes to go in the series and they are still stuck in the Delta Quadrant. They need to make it home and pronto and futzing around with time is the only way to do this.
Now, how do we get our good Kathryn, prime directive upholding straight-shooter that she is (when it suits her), to abandon the noble principles and go for the time-meddling stuff? Easy, we tell her that the guy she loves or at least cares for very much is going to marry her protege, who dies soon and he'll be miserable and die soon as well and that her other trusted friend and advisor will go mad.
Either one of these things would probably not have been enough, but that perfect storm of loss and grief for those closest to her and consequentially for herself was (believed to be) enough for her to kiss the temporal prime directive good-bye. There could have been other reasons developed to convince her to follow the admiral's lead, maybe a dying mother, or that Voyager is the only hope the Federation has to defeat some alien-of-the-week, etc. But the reasons (unhappy Chakotay and crazy Tuvok plus unhappy/jealous Kathryn) they went with could easily and quickly be developed without much effort.
So, I have convinced myself now, that C/7 only happened because that was the fastest, easiest way to get Voyager home by making Katie buy into the futzing-around-with-time stuff, something that would have been harder to do otherwise.

 

[2takesfrakes]

So ... if I'm reading you correctly ... what got VOYAGER home was Kathryn Janeway's Human failings? I'll buy that ... The Human Condition is no mere cliché, or trite phrase! No. It's the driving force behind everything these characters do and become. Kathryn was Chakotay's woman, she knew it. You know? She knew she was avoiding what she should've been doing, but she was all like, "oh ... it'll keep." Until, that is ... Seven of Nine showed her otherwise.

And this is how so many in Real Life make important realisations, finally. They'll have close friends and family telling them, repeatedly, "you're in danger!" but they don't listen, or don't believe it, or they know better, and wouldn't you just know it? Some stranger, or casual acquaintance notes the very same observation the others have and now, suddenly ... it registers! Everything adds up, now and the danger is recognised and they take the appropriate steps to avoid catastrophe. Kathryn would be no different, in this regard, because of where her focus had been for 7 Seasons. By Jove, Katinka! You ... have ... sussed ... it ...!!!

 

[Guy Gardener]

So, we are done with the rewatch and I finally saw Endgame today for the first time many years, maybe ever, I can't recall.

Read this.

http://www.firsttvdrama.com/endgame/index.php3

It's really mean.

Completely vicious.

 

[locutus101]

I think the last episode involvement of seven and chac is a bit strained to say the least. Only a couple of episodes before they were stranded together on a primitive planet and there wasn't even a hint of romantic interest between the two of them. Things just don't appear out of thin air without any warnings!!! Come on! For four years there was total indifference even hostility between them. Janeway has to defend seven against chac's intimations that she was always borg (regardless of the fact that she had already saved the ship a couple of times back then) and at the LAST MINUTE (so to speak) he's madly in love with her!!! Oh come on!

 

[Katinka]

I think the last episode involvement of seven and chac is a bit strained to say the least. Only a couple of episodes before they were stranded together on a primitive planet and there wasn't even a hint of romantic interest between the two of them. Things just don't appear out of thin air without any warnings!!! Come on! For four years there was total indifference even hostility between them. Janeway has to defend seven against chac's intimations that she was always borg (regardless of the fact that she had already saved the ship a couple of times back then) and at the LAST MINUTE (so to speak) he's madly in love with her!!! Oh come on!

That's exactly what I am saying, it makes no sense for them to all of a sudden be romantically involved. The only way this story makes sense is when one looks at it as a way to move the rest of the story forward and Voyager home by providing Janeway the incentive to trample her valued principles because she is about to loose her man for good. As always 2takesfrakes put it very eloquently

Kathryn Janeway's Human failings

made her betray her principles and obliterate a perfectly good time line to get her crew home ahead of schedule and give herself another chance to be happy. Kathy's human failings allowed the writers to get them home 16 years earlier - and even as a fan, I am not sure I would have wanted to watch 16 more years of Voyager :-)

 

[Katinka]

So ... if I'm reading you correctly ... what got VOYAGER home was Kathryn Janeway's Human failings? I'll buy that ... The Human Condition is no mere cliché, or trite phrase! No. It's the driving force behind everything these characters do and become. Kathryn was Chakotay's woman, she knew it. You know? She knew she was avoiding what she should've been doing, but she was all like, "oh ... it'll keep." Until, that is ... Seven of Nine showed her otherwise.

And this is how so many in Real Life make important realisations, finally. They'll have close friends and family telling them, repeatedly, "you're in danger!" but they don't listen, or don't believe it, or they know better, and wouldn't you just know it? Some stranger, or casual acquaintance notes the very same observation the others have and now, suddenly ... it registers! Everything adds up, now and the danger is recognised and they take the appropriate steps to avoid catastrophe. Kathryn would be no different, in this regard, because of where her focus had been for 7 Seasons. By Jove, Katinka! You ... have ... sussed ... it ...!!!

I am glad we are seeing eye to eye! I feel a lot better about Endgame now, that I have resolved for myself that Chakotay wasn't really in love with 7 but that the writers used the poor guy (didn't they always) to further their own nefarious purposes of getting Voyager home in one felt 90-min swoop instead of coming up with a solution that might take longer but would have been more plausible. Then again, why do I expect plausibility from sci fi?