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Why Deep Space Nine will always be my favorite Star Trek

Now, you keep trying to make it seem that we who make these observations are trying to describe the series as being in revolt against the studio and Berman. You are grossly exaggerating.

Too many people try to make it seem like the things DS9 did right, Berman had no say in. Which is a misrepresentation of what went on. I believe in the record being correct. Berman was in charge, Behr was an underling. Nothing got greenlighted without Rick Berman being involved. The show did not run without "management oversight" as stated above.

Rick Berman is every bit as responsible for what Deep Space Nine was, as anyone. Successes and failures.
 
I believe in the record being correct. Berman was in charge, Behr was an underling. Nothing got greenlighted without Rick Berman being involved. The show did not run without "management oversight" as stated above.
You have presented no evidence of how that relationship worked. All you do is repeat idealized notions of the power that executive producers should hold.
 
You have presented no evidence of how that relationship worked. All you do is repeat idealized notions of the power that executive producers should hold.

So you believe that Paramount tossed two million dollars a week at Ira Steven Behr and walked away?
 
So you believe that Paramount tossed two million dollars a week at Ira Steven Behr and walked away?
I'm saying I've read a lot from various parties involved. The studio got enough of what it wanted, but not everything.

It's time you put up some evidence.
 
No, DS9 slipped slightly below the studio's radar. They were happy that there was a (somewhat) stable audience for DS9, but concentrated on Voyager, as it was the network's priority. They did care about things that might affect second-run syndication, but generally were happy if the ship stayed afloat. We know from Berman himself that the studio wanted no Dominion War, Berman himself wanted four episodes, but Behr ended up with six that did not even end the war. We know Berman wanted six episode to end the series, Behr won eight, but finagled ten. We know that Berman supported Behr in allowing Sisko's look to change. We know Berman supported the studio in introducing Worf to the series. These were the big decisions. Get into the mundane--especially those things the guardian of Roddenberry's legacy should care about--and Behr often got his war. In terms of story it was achieved by introducing minor elements into scripts that could be exploited down the road, but that did not appear like serialization up front.

Now, you keep trying to make it seem that we who make these observations are trying to describe the series as being in revolt against the studio and Berman. You are grossly exaggerating.

Sounds very much like Rick Berman and the studio were involved. Which completely dismisses the notion that Deep Space Nine ran without "management oversight". It also seems like Berman was a flexible boss, but was ultimately involved in the running of the show as Executive Producer.

It's time you put up some evidence.

Your own post shows that the series didn't run without "management oversight" or Rick Berman's involvement.
 
So now it seems we've made progress. I've went from being wrong to being pedantic.
You are not looking at the details and, most importantly, the EVIDENCE of how the show worked.

And only you are ascribing to us the notion that the studio and Berman had no effect. You are misrepresenting us.
 
And only you are ascribing to us the notion that the studio and Berman had no effect. You are misrepresenting us.

The below quote isn't the first time I've seen fans of Deep Space Nine make the claims about Berman and the studios non-involvement...

It is a testament to what a production team and actors can accomplish without management oversight.
 
You are over-interpreting what is a relativistic statement.

Sometimes, when something is repeated over and over, it becomes the truth. Much like many of the myths that cropped up around TOS that some folks still believe to this day. It is best that even a "relativistic statement" not go uncorrected.
 
Anyone thinking that Rick Berman wasn't involved in the decision making process on DS9 is kidding themselves. And I don't know why? Berman proved to be a more than capable producer.

In the shows favor, I would recommend that "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" be shown to school kids about the dangers of overreacting to threats.
I consider Berman part of the production team, not management. Ira Behr handled Berman better than any other showrunner, which also helped. Also Berman oversaw post-production. Strangely, the other producers weren't allowed to participate in post till much later. Berman's positive and negative effects on the franchise are definitely a subject for debate, but in this case I was counting him among the positive contributors.
 
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The reason Berman had less control over DS9 was because it didn't fit the Gene mold. Berman's "talent" was keeping Gene's vision alive. But because DS9 was a show structured outside of Gene's vision, it was easier for Behr to push for serialization and war stories because the usual tropes didn't work. Prior Trek was mostly based on starfleet coming in, stirring things up for one reason or another, an then leaving. Generally speaking, the crew didn't discuss what happened on the planet of the week. DS9 was stationary so whatever happened to the characters affected them going forward, and ignoring that (as they tried to do earlier on under Piller) didn't work so well.
The studio moved past caring once they realized that it was niche show that would never reach the viewership that TNG had. So the studio mentality was to move on to another ship-based show, Voyager, in attempt to recapture the success of TNG.
Again, I cite the 50yr mission as a source for all of this.
 
Simply head and shoulders above the other shows - especially Voyager and the first three seasons of Enterprise. Plot, arc, cast, characters...

I could be wrong, but I expect the new show to be more similar to DS9 than the other shows.
 
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Eh, There's a lot to like about DS9 and a lot that ruins it for me.

My opinions:

The Bad:
  • The first three years were terrible. The majority of the stories were sub-par.
  • The Doctor is a perfect storm: BY FAR the most annoying, the worst written and most poorly acted character in any ST. The actor is hard to look at, he can't act and his constant whining "Kahmandah" in that accent makes me reach for the fast forward button every time he's on the screen for more than a few seconds. I i dislike this character so much, I skip episodes where he plays a prominent role. He's sour and he thinks he's far more moral and generally better than everyone else. I guess it explains why they eventually had to make him artificially "better" than everyone else.
  • Odo is an unlikable one-dimensional character. At least 90% of the time. He seems to dislike everyone he comes in contact with. The only time I could stand him is early on, when he seemed to have a tiny affection for Quark. He thinks he's better than everyone else. He's self-serving, needy, and a traitor, even to his own kind.
  • Kira is an unlikable one-dimensional character, a non-stop broken record of occupation this and occupation that. At least 60% of the time, to be fair. Another character who seems to be filled with hate for everyone she comes in contact with. Its no surprise that she and the sour Odo found each other.
  • Vic Fontaine. I mean really? This whole nauseating plot line gets skipped on re-watch. The character is ridiculous, as are the other character's interests in the whole farce.
  • Kassidy Yates: I loved Penny Johnson in The Larry Sanders Show. Here she does not play the part well, I think the part of Kassidy Yates was entirely miscast. Depending on my mood I may or may not fast forward when she's on screen for too long.
  • The Bajorans: What a G-D whiny race of pathetic, inferior people. They were obviously intended to be portrayed as a deeply artistic, spiritual, and peaceful race, but those things were said but never shown. The spiritual leaders were greedy opportunists, the people whiny, self-serving and hostile with more than their fair share of all-about-me weirdos and fanatics.
The good:
  • Worf. The show started to gain momentum when he joined. A testament to how dull and one-dimensional the original characters are.
  • The Dominion War: The show had no direction, this gave it one. Although the Cardassians "joining" the Dominion made little sense to me from what I know of the Cardassians.
  • The whole "Emissary of the Prophets" plot thread throughout the series. I enjoyed all the episodes that explored this. One thing that bothered me though: Sisko was obviously the Emissary, he was obviously in contact with the Prophets, he obviously had multiple visions, and there were the orbs given to Bajor by the prophets... So when one of the characters said that they "didn't believe in the Prophets" it seemed forced and stupid. The existence of beings living in the wormhole that became part of Bajoran life and culture through prophecies and visions was an obvious fact. Disbelief was irrelevant and an obvious writer's device.
  • How the 'Emissary' plot thread was ultimately resolved.
There were several really good stories, but this is my least favorite ST because of so many dull and unlikable characters.

My best-of list, with *** being my favorite episodes.

01 "Emissary" ***
02 "Paradise"
02 "Blood Oath"
03 "Meridian"
04 "Explorers"
05 "The Visitor" ***
06 "Little Green Men"
07 "Homefront"
08 "Accession"
09 "Hard Time"
10 "Apocalypse Rising"
11 "Trials and Tribble-ations" ***
12 "Rapture"
13 "Children of Time"
14 "Call to Arms"
15 "In the Pale Moonlight" ***
16 "The Reckoning"
17 "Time's Orphan" ***
18 "Tears of the Prophets"
19 "Image in the Sand"
20 "What You Leave Behind" ***

Actually, the only thing that hinders my intense love of all things DS9 is the Bajoran religion/prophets, etc. The prophets themselves are interesting as a species but the spiritual nature of it (and them and Sisko and the Bajorans) is just too much sometimes (even though, despite all that, I still loved the final Winn/Dukat storyline). Clearly, a lot of this comes from own personal bias but I just find it hard to believe that a worldwide theocracy would be a space-faring civilization, much less one which became so before even the Cardassians. I really like Major Kira but I despise her religious side. For a perfect example, there's this exchange between Kira and Odo in the episode, "Accession," that always makes me cringe:
*********
ODO: Major. Come to see Akorem speak?
KIRA: The Emissary's first public appearance? I wouldn't miss it.
ODO: I'm surprised to hear you call him that.
KIRA: Why? Akorem Laan was, is a great man. He's been with the Prophets for over two hundred years, and now they've sent him back to us.
ODO: Yes, but two days ago you believed Captain Sisko was the Emissary.
KIRA: Well, he made it clear he wants to step aside.
ODO: Does that mean he never really was the Emissary?
KIRA: No.
ODO: But they can't both be.
KIRA: I don't know. What do you want from me, Odo?
ODO: Forgive me, Major, I don't mean to be difficult, but your faith seems to have led you to something of a contradiction.
KIRA: I don't see it as a contradiction.
ODO: I don't understand.
KIRA: That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do, no explanation is necessary.
*********

WHAT? That is not a response. That's a deflection. So, Kira just blindly believes and does whatever, without pause or introspection? Am I, as a viewer, supposed to admire or feel contempt for her?
 
WHAT? That is not a response. That's a deflection. So, Kira just blindly believes and does whatever, without pause or introspection? Am I, as a viewer, supposed to admire or feel contempt for her?
It is a famous quote from Thomas Aquinas. Take it up with him.
 
Actually, the only thing that hinders my intense love of all things DS9 is the Bajoran religion/prophets, etc. The prophets themselves are interesting as a species but the spiritual nature of it (and them and Sisko and the Bajorans) is just too much sometimes (even though, despite all that, I still loved the final Winn/Dukat storyline). Clearly, a lot of this comes from own personal bias but I just find it hard to believe that a worldwide theocracy would be a space-faring civilization, much less one which became so before even the Cardassians. I really like Major Kira but I despise her religious side. For a perfect example, there's this exchange between Kira and Odo in the episode, "Accession," that always makes me cringe:
*********
ODO: Major. Come to see Akorem speak?
KIRA: The Emissary's first public appearance? I wouldn't miss it.
ODO: I'm surprised to hear you call him that.
KIRA: Why? Akorem Laan was, is a great man. He's been with the Prophets for over two hundred years, and now they've sent him back to us.
ODO: Yes, but two days ago you believed Captain Sisko was the Emissary.
KIRA: Well, he made it clear he wants to step aside.
ODO: Does that mean he never really was the Emissary?
KIRA: No.
ODO: But they can't both be.
KIRA: I don't know. What do you want from me, Odo?
ODO: Forgive me, Major, I don't mean to be difficult, but your faith seems to have led you to something of a contradiction.
KIRA: I don't see it as a contradiction.
ODO: I don't understand.
KIRA: That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do, no explanation is necessary.
*********

WHAT? That is not a response.

Yes, it is.

Many people of religious faith don't need to have the things they believe 'validated'. As a person of religious faith myself, Kira's response to Odo is exactly how I feel, and is similar to how I myself would respond if questioned about why I believe what I believe.
 
Actually, the only thing that hinders my intense love of all things DS9 is the Bajoran religion/prophets, etc. The prophets themselves are interesting as a species but the spiritual nature of it (and them and Sisko and the Bajorans) is just too much sometimes (even though, despite all that, I still loved the final Winn/Dukat storyline). Clearly, a lot of this comes from own personal bias but I just find it hard to believe that a worldwide theocracy would be a space-faring civilization, much less one which became so before even the Cardassians. I really like Major Kira but I despise her religious side. For a perfect example, there's this exchange between Kira and Odo in the episode, "Accession," that always makes me cringe:
*********
ODO: Major. Come to see Akorem speak?
KIRA: The Emissary's first public appearance? I wouldn't miss it.
ODO: I'm surprised to hear you call him that.
KIRA: Why? Akorem Laan was, is a great man. He's been with the Prophets for over two hundred years, and now they've sent him back to us.
ODO: Yes, but two days ago you believed Captain Sisko was the Emissary.
KIRA: Well, he made it clear he wants to step aside.
ODO: Does that mean he never really was the Emissary?
KIRA: No.
ODO: But they can't both be.
KIRA: I don't know. What do you want from me, Odo?
ODO: Forgive me, Major, I don't mean to be difficult, but your faith seems to have led you to something of a contradiction.
KIRA: I don't see it as a contradiction.
ODO: I don't understand.
KIRA: That's the thing about faith. If you don't have it, you can't understand it, and if you do, no explanation is necessary.
*********

WHAT? That is not a response. That's a deflection. So, Kira just blindly believes and does whatever, without pause or introspection? Am I, as a viewer, supposed to admire or feel contempt for her?

Maybe you intensely fear what you can't, won't, or don't understand? Either way, the Bajoran Prophets were real, their physical, emotional, and theological connection to Bajor was real, The writings and prophecies were real, so your opinions regarding their faith is moot. You do see that, correct?
 
Many people of religious faith don't need to have the things they believe 'validated'. As a person of religious faith myself, Kira's response to Odo is exactly how I feel, and is similar to how I myself would respond if questioned about why I believe what I believe.

I don't see much use in a "God" if it allows your people to be raped and murdered, and your culture pillaged and destroyed. Weird thing? If the Occupation was some kind of "punishment", the Bajorans seemed to forget it quickly as they were willing to go back to their old ways.
 
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