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Why can't we just have evil villains?

You're not going to stop giving them the benefit of a doubt after they went and engaged in a war of aggression against worlds that just wanted to stay independent? The Alliance does not have a democratic mandate to govern the Rim worlds. You might as well say that you're not going to stop giving Nazi Germany the benefit of a doubt after they've gone and conquered Poland in the name of greater Lebenstraum.

As I understand it, Firefly was primarily intended to be a metaphor for the American Civil War.

You are mistaken. Some of the concepts and imagery were inspired by the American Civil War, but it wasn't a strict metaphor or allegory for it.

In that respect, you can also argue that the Union did not have a democratic mandate to govern the southern states. Or rather, the southern states did consent to being governed by the Union when the United States was 1st formed. However, that consent was revoked when the south decided to form the Confederacy.

I don't think you can fairly or accurately argue that the U.S. did or did not have a democratic mandate to govern the South, because 39% of the South's population was enslaved -- meaning that 39% of the South's inhabitants didn't get a say when it seceded.

As has been said, many of the transgressions perpetrated by the Alliance have also been perpetrated by the United States at some point,

And as I noted, it's not the presence of any one or two abuses of power, but the systematic combination of all of them occurring in close conjunction with one-another.

No government is trustworthy. But neither is any entire country "good" or "evil" either. While the Alliance government may have had evil intentions, there were undoubtedly good people in the Alliance. Similarly, I think there were good people in the Galactic Empire in Star Wars as well. Remember, Princess Leia was a member of the Imperial Senate, so they couldn't have been all bad. Plus, the Empire was full of ordinary working stiffs who were just trying to live their daily lives.

Agreed; even in the most tyrannical of countries, there are good people and normal folk who just want to live their lives in peace.
 
I'd agree that absolute villains generally aren't interesting; for that to work you need to have really strong heroes and stakes (like the White Witch against everything) and if everything was super-high stakes the stories would all be too similar. Even then, the villain shouldn't feel too abstract (like I felt Palpatine was in RotJ, even Joker was in TDK) or they and the story feel too unreal.

While some things are wrong, a lot of situations do depend on where you stand. I just read the first Tintin comic where he warns rich people that Soviet troops will take their grain (this is justified as the government has grain it uses for propaganda, but it still leaves people hungry). A more recent example is The Incredibles where, as the feministing writer pointed out, the villain's plot to give nuclear weapons to countries who don't have it, making the U.S. less of a superpower, only seems really wrong if you think the power imbalance is good.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.

As I've said before in this thread, I like 'em both -- I like morally simplistic archetypes, and I like psychologically realistic antagonists. It just depends on what kind of character is right for the story being told.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.

As I've said before in this thread, I like 'em both -- I like morally simplistic archetypes, and I like psychologically realistic antagonists. It just depends on what kind of character is right for the story being told.

Villains like the Emperor work best when they're string-pullers, rather than being front-and-center bad guys, I think.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.

As I've said before in this thread, I like 'em both -- I like morally simplistic archetypes, and I like psychologically realistic antagonists. It just depends on what kind of character is right for the story being told.

Villains like the Emperor work best when they're string-pullers, rather than being front-and-center bad guys, I think.

Seems to me that villains like Palpatine actually work only when they have a really wonderful actor to bring them to life. Ian McDiarmid is simply a brilliant actor who's able to bring Palpatine to life as a fascinating, compelling villain. In the hands of a lesser actor, nothing like Palpatine could work.
 
Similarly, a lot of my friends play those different Jedi video games where you can earn either Light Side points or Dark Side points. Invariably, my friends find themselves unable to be successful on the Dark Side because so much of it seems to involve exhausting, petty bullying.

I try to make a point of playing through the storyline as a Dark Side character (or whatever the Karma/Renegade equivalent is in other games), but it always leaves you feeling pretty down on your persona. Whatever the rewards of such a path, in terms of money or force points or whatever, it just doesn't seem worth the trade-off against the cheap validation of NPCs telling you how awesome you are and how grateful they are for your very existence.

Ian McDiarmid is simply a brilliant actor who's able to bring Palpatine to life as a fascinating, compelling villain. In the hands of a lesser actor, nothing like Palpatine could work.

Between James Earl Jones' Vader and McDiarmid's Palpatine, Star Wars has some of the best vocal villains out there. It doesn't matter how trite the dialogue, they always make it imposing or sinister. Throw in Hugo Weaving and you could probably have a thriller film with nothing but their voices on a black screen.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
I prefer Dark Side story arcs more often than not in those games. Why, in KOTOR II, if you turn dark you get Hanharr, who's a sociopathic Wookiee with the utmost contempt for weakness. I liked him better than the breasted Han Solo who is an alternative.

And the first KOTOR
I got that game's wookiee to kill that Twi'lek kid. That satisfied my cackling supervillainy side, to be sure.

But yeah, there's a warm, fuzzy feeling one gets for doing the Right Thing in a videogame, though that's not restricted to the Star Wars titles.

Between James Earl Jones' Vader and McDiarmid's Palpatine, Star Wars has some of the best vocal villains out there. It doesn't matter how trite the dialogue,
Agreed, with an honourable nod in my opinion to Dooku; a far lesser villain than those two, true, but he's still Christopher Lee. (Even that actor who dubbed over Darth Maul's five or so lines wasn't bad.)
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.
Oh, Iago is far from motiveless IMO, whatever Coleridge might have said - in fact, I'd say that his motivation is pretty fucking obvious, unless one really doesn't want to see it because it makes them uncomfortable (which I suspect might have been the case with a lot of critics from previous centuries who seemed to have the fact that Othello is a black man in a very white society completely go over their heads).

Let's see, if a movie was made today about a respectable black guy in a position of power, and his ambitious, scheming, jealous white subordinate who plots to ruin his life - who is pissed off at his superior because he was passed on promotion, and bitches to himself in his monologues about his resentment of his superior, constantly bringing up his skin color, and even indulging in paranoid delusions that his wife had cheated on him with this respectable, powerful black superior - who happens to have a beautiful white wife from an influential family (even though it is obvious that this has nothing to do with the truth, as the black superior is madly in love with his wife and the villain's wife is mad about her husband - and that the paranoia has more to do with the villain's own issues...)...

... I wonder how many critics would be talking about the villain's "motiveless malignity"? :vulcan:
 
Power out for days forcing people into refuge with relatives,
multiple illnesses in the family and the chaos of last minute shopping and wrapping. :scream:

Merry Christmas!:cool:

Decompressing by means of mindless internet obsessing is easier on the joints than chopping a cord of wood, so here goes.

Logically, this is the same question as "Why can't we just have good heroes?" Briefly, the answer is that being nice isn't sexy or cool. Being sexy or cool is much better than being interesting, and even makes a plot device acceptable.

Notice that most people prefer Han to Luke. Han, the guy who shoots first, is not going to be the guy who somehow dives into the fray to save the day. His remarkable success in succeeding in saving Luke from Vader by the way makes no sense and is an arbitrary plot contrivance that would be denounced as a deus ex machina if people didn't like the character. (You can't even pretend Han is using the Force to ruin his enemies' aim!)

By Return of the Jedi, Han is still the same guy. He doesn't even seem to have quite noticed that the Force actually works. But Han is sexy and cool, therefore the lack of character development, the triviality of all his decisions (essentially everythig he does is to get the hot princess,) and the wish fulfilment aspect (namely, would any supposedly mature woman, as opposed to a hormone crazed girl with cretinously naive ideas, really commit to someone like Solo?) are all overlooked. Han is cool but not interesting.

Luke, on the other hand, despite the obvious wish fulfilment aspect in possession of the Force, is not cool, nor sexy. Using the Force requires far too much receptivity, is too passive to make him look like a winner. The change in character (obvious as the color change in wardrobe, granted, but still there,) which is commonly exalted as the defining mark of good writing is overlooked. Luke's choice to try to reclaim Vader is one of the few actions in the original trilogy that doesn't reduce to male chasing female. Hands down, Luke is the more interesting character, which just proves that coolness is the only thing that matters.

Darth Vader in the original trilogy is the epitome of sexy and cool. The viewer delights on one level in the anarchic fun of just letting it all come out (the same appeal of simple minded "characters" like Hannibal Lecter, the Ledger Joker or the Bale Batman.) The defeat of the villain serves as reaffirmation of the ego over the id, and all is well. Simplistic eeevil villains serve this function well.

In the prequel trilogy, the desire to see cool was thwarted by showig evil as small minded and petty. Doing evil was shown as a failure of intellect and will, instead of noble tragedy. The slightest mature reflection convinces you that this is the honest thing to do. The feeble attempt to tack on a save Amidala motive merely provoked. The universal hatred and contempt for Anakin Skywalker again proves coolness is the only thing that matters.

If a villain is sufficiently cool, the writers will start ennobling him (rarely, her.) Reportedly Joss Whedon loved to do this, and I suspect that if Dr. Horrible gets a sequel, he will actually win, instead of lucking out, and might even be "redeemed." Certainly, "Jubal Early"'s second appearance, in the guise of The Operative, showed terminal signs of the "he's so cool he's gotta have noble motives syndrome." By the end of Farscape, Scorpius was by far the most heroic character, as measured by the standards of self sacrifice, personal disinterest, persistence, cunning and insight. Thomas L. Harris ended up writing young Hannibal as scion of nobility bravely fighting Nazis and tragically damaged by his heroic struggle, as I understand it.

Making the villain more complex in this way is just a way of making him more attractive.

The point is that the ennobling of the sexy villain doesn't keep them from winning. Thus, the vicarious joy in lack of impulse control is safely contained when the villain is defeated. Klingons are the coolest, but they don't and won't ever win.
 
Then Kate, the lady cop, told him that he managed to enter her apartment and save her life without being invited, with the suggestion of divine intervention VERY clear.

You're reading what you choose into a very ambiguous story situation. There's all manner of supernatural intervention that goes on in Whedon's stories, with talk of all kinds of "gods" and higher powers. That doesn't diminish the fact that Whedon does believe in and portray the universe itself, existence itself, as utterly indifferent to human notions of good and evil.

I believe his favored term for God is "the sky bully."

"That way lies madness and destruction?" Dude, the convictions of millions of people that they know the difference between some universal, essential "good" and "evil" have led directly as much madness and destruction on this planet than your most evil, evil villain in a story could hope for. :guffaw:

Hawaiian pizza - preferably pineapple and ham, but bacon or peperoni will do - is Good.
 
Hawaiian pizza - preferably pineapple and ham, but bacon or peperoni will do - is Good.

Exactly.

Hm, now I'm hungry.

Logically, this is the same question as "Why can't we just have good heroes?" Briefly, the answer is that being nice isn't sexy or cool. Being sexy or cool is much better than being interesting, and even makes a plot device acceptable.
I tend to think the idea is to make them sexy and cool to make them interesting - nice guy heroes are in danger of being incredibly dull. Most people who prefer Han to Luke tend to find Han more interesting; which is not to say he's a more complex character or he has more character development. These things do not directly follow, that is.

Reportedly Joss Whedon loved to do this, and I suspect that if Dr. Horrible gets a sequel, he will actually win, instead of lucking out, and might even be "redeemed." Certainly, "Jubal Early"'s second appearance, in the guise of The Operative,
Jubal Early's first appearance was ennobling enough. The episode was clearly in love with the guy and every other witticism he uttered. And while he'd threaten to rape women, he'd prefer not to. Etc.
 
^^^Well, everyone would have you believe they are fans of good writing, meaning interested in complex characters who develop. I agree that in practice, interest is sparked by something else (entirely?)

The point about Early is correct.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.

As I've said before in this thread, I like 'em both -- I like morally simplistic archetypes, and I like psychologically realistic antagonists. It just depends on what kind of character is right for the story being told.


Totally agree.
 
Then Kate, the lady cop, told him that he managed to enter her apartment and save her life without being invited, with the suggestion of divine intervention VERY clear.

You're reading what you choose into a very ambiguous story situation. There's all manner of supernatural intervention that goes on in Whedon's stories, with talk of all kinds of "gods" and higher powers. That doesn't diminish the fact that Whedon does believe in and portray the universe itself, existence itself, as utterly indifferent to human notions of good and evil.

I believe his favored term for God is "the sky bully."

No, Whedon does NOT do that. He makes his universes AMBIGUOUS, open to possibility...

And since we are going to use Whedon quotes for evidence...

When interviewed by The AV Club on October 9, 2002, Whedon answered the question "Is there a God?" with one word: "No." The interviewer followed up with: "That's it, end of story, no?" Whedon answered: "Absolutely not. That's a very important and necessary thing to learn."[63]
QFT.

BTW, about me "reading into" the Angel episode "Epiphany"?

Ok...

That evening, Kate and Angel come to a reckoning and she forgives him, believing there is a higher power at work and they're not alone in the never-ending battle against the forces of darkness. When Angel asks her why, she replies that she never invited him into her apartment.
It's not me "reading what I choose". That's the characters, what they said, thought and EXPERIENCED. Now, you could engage in all kinds of rationalization, if you choose, but the raw, is what it is.

I ain't making it up.


"That way lies madness and destruction?" Dude, the convictions of millions of people that they know the difference between some universal, essential "good" and "evil" have led directly as much madness and destruction on this planet than your most evil, evil villain in a story could hope for. :guffaw:
Putting aside the AMAZING GOOD and positive things that believers have also brought to the world, which you are all too willing to do so, again, I'll just say that the above isn't due to religion. It's a human thing, that harccore devotees to ANY ism can begin to become increasingly myopic in their view of the "other", whatever the other is, and eventually begin justifying in their own minds whatever they wish to do to those who are "wrong".

Atheists are no different. From the angry, arrogant, hostile attitudes you get in our culture (no different from that of theists) to their own mass murder spress (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, etc).

The only difference between the two is that the religious fanatics have a head start in history.
 
"That way lies madness and destruction?" Dude, the convictions of millions of people that they know the difference between some universal, essential "good" and "evil" have led directly as much madness and destruction on this planet than your most evil, evil villain in a story could hope for. :guffaw:
Putting aside the AMAZING GOOD and positive things that believers have also brought to the world, which you are all too willing to do so, again, I'll just say that the above isn't due to religion. It's a human thing, that harccore devotees to ANY ism can begin to become increasingly myopic in their view of the "other", whatever the other is, and eventually begin justifying in their own minds whatever they wish to do to those who are "wrong".

Atheists are no different. From the angry, arrogant, hostile attitudes you get in our culture (no different from that of theists) to their own mass murder spress (Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, etc).

The only difference between the two is that the religious fanatics have a head start in history.
Aren't you making his point? He didn't equate convictions of millions of people that they know the difference between some universal, essential "good" and "evil" with religious convictions (for all we know, he might have meant it, but for all we know, he might not have; in any case, nothing in his post indicates that he did). For instance, for fanatical communists, capitalism is universal, essential Evil while communism and economic equality is universal, essential Good. For nationalists, they think they know exactly what it good for the nation, and since belonging to a nation is a person's most essential identity according to them and their nation is the most important thing in the world in their opinion, the "traitors" or foreign "enemies" are absolute Evil. It's the same kind of binary thinking, even though it pertains to all sorts of different ideologies and religions.
 
Just a thought: Anyone find Palpatine interesting? I mean, really interesting? Certainly not in 4-6, maybe bits of 1-3, but his motives, aside from a lunge for power, are obscure and... I find it hard to care.

I find Palpatine interesting, in the sense that I find a character like Iago from Othello interesting -- this sort of "motiveless malignity," as Samuel Taylor Coleridge described Shakespeare's villain. I do find that sort of pure archetypical evil to be fascinating -- but I also don't think it's the right kind of character for all stories.
Oh, Iago is far from motiveless IMO, whatever Coleridge might have said - in fact, I'd say that his motivation is pretty fucking obvious, unless one really doesn't want to see it because it makes them uncomfortable (which I suspect might have been the case with a lot of critics from previous centuries who seemed to have the fact that Othello is a black man in a very white society completely go over their heads).

Let's see, if a movie was made today about a respectable black guy in a position of power, and his ambitious, scheming, jealous white subordinate who plots to ruin his life - who is pissed off at his superior because he was passed on promotion, and bitches to himself in his monologues about his resentment of his superior, constantly bringing up his skin color, and even indulging in paranoid delusions that his wife had cheated on him with this respectable, powerful black superior - who happens to have a beautiful white wife from an influential family (even though it is obvious that this has nothing to do with the truth, as the black superior is madly in love with his wife and the villain's wife is mad about her husband - and that the paranoia has more to do with the villain's own issues...)...

... I wonder how many critics would be talking about the villain's "motiveless malignity"? :vulcan:

That's certainly a valid interpretation of the character, but I think you run the risk of projecting modern concepts of race relations onto Elizabethan characters; from what I understand of the history of racism, European racism -- indeed, the very idea of Europeans as a separate "race" -- was in its very early stages during the late 1500s and early 1600s, and as such I think it's just as valid to suggest that Iago is not racist, but instead merely seizes upon anything he can to find excuses for his inherent malice and sadism.
 
Aren't you making his point? He didn't equate convictions of millions of people that they know the difference between some universal, essential "good" and "evil" with religious convictions (for all we know, he might have meant it, but for all we know, he might not have; in any case, nothing in his post indicates that he did). For instance, for fanatical communists, capitalism is universal, essential Evil while communism and economic equality is universal, essential Good. For nationalists, they think they know exactly what it good for the nation, and since belonging to a nation is a person's most essential identity according to them and their nation is the most important thing in the world in their opinion, the "traitors" or foreign "enemies" are absolute Evil. It's the same kind of binary thinking, even though it pertains to all sorts of different ideologies and religions.


No, not really. He led from the front, blaming theists for all this. I responded that they aren't the only ones guilty of that.

He seemed to believe that freeing one up from RELIGIOUS BELIEF would separate yourself from that kind world view. It doesn't.

Religion is not responsible for that sort of thing. Believing in right and wrong doesn't create those atrocities. It's a level of fanaticism that allows you to override all kinds of sanctions IN SAID BELIEF system which allows you to do it.

Most belief systems tend to frown on that sort of thing.

"Binary thinking" alone won't get you there.

Any more than some "amorphous, shapeless, formeless quasi-morality" guarantees you will be saved from it.
 
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