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Why can't we just have evil villains?

If you're going to be a villain, you have to have a plan. The Forces of Law will be arranged against you, between you and your goal. You have to beat them and turn the hearts and minds of others, whether by force, magic, persuasion or charm. It's not enough to stomp in and break stuff and kill people. What do you do next? Kill yourself now you've reached your goal? The whole 'just plain evil' thing isn't that rewarding.
 
I agree that a villain doesn't need to have some back story that explains the motivation behind his evilness to be effective, but at the same time, I find it very boring for a villain to simply be mean and destructive for the hell of it. I don't know what he was like in the comics, but this is exactly why I found Darkseid so boring in the Superman and Justice League cartoons.

He just seemed to be this really mean, humourless guy who just hated Superman and destroyed things/killed people just to piss Superman off. Yawn. He never did or said anything interesting. I found Lex Luthor and Gorilla Grodd much more appealing because at least they had ego, sense of humour, ambition, and smugness that made them cool. A villain who is just a sourpuss asshole is blah.
Of course Darkseid was not created as a Superman or JLA villain. He was created as a foe of the New Gods. His opposite numbers are Highfather and Orion. Orion being his "wayward" son.
 
Actors like complex, and they like villains, because they give them more of a chance to show off their acting chops. Complex villains give them a chance to really show their stuff.

Myself, I'd like to see a villain who wins, all the way to the end.
Dr. Horrible came pretty close.
 
Oh, evil is most definitely a thing.

What is the unit of measure of evil? At what temperature goes it freeze, or turn to gas? Where is it located? Can an evil person be given an evil-ectomy? Evil is not a thing. Evil is a concept--specific to a context.

To suggest that something isn't evil is to imply that it's GOOD, and I can't conceive how any rational being could deduce that any of those things are good.

Only if dualism if your only mode of thought. Understand: I do not reject only one or another of the features you present as being the only states of being (I wonder--is a car good or evil?), I reject your entire framework. I consider benefit, harm, happiness, and suffering; I do not need, do not want, 'evil', nor 'good' in the sense you describe it (which is an even more pernicious notion: as difficult as it is to obtain an agreement on the concept of evil, good is even more elusive). Indeed, I consider that this ideological structure is corrupt, perhaps inherently so, and, as I've described, does far more to enable suffering and pain than it does to prevent it, if only by virtue of the carte blanche it provides for violent acts.

So what would you call all of those things I mentioned?

Criminal.

I haven't planned and carried out terrorist attacks against innocent people, so I think the evil ball is in his court. ;)

He says you have; or rather, the national and religious entities to which you belong (I'm assuming from your location you are American, and from your affection for Manichaeism that you are Christian). And there can be no innocents, because if you are not good (Muslim), then by implication you are evil.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Because pure 'good' and 'evil' characters are boring...and Nero was a very boring, forgetable character.

The Emperor of Star Wars was the same, and though I don't care for Star Wars, least Vader was much more interesting than the emperor ever was.

Heck, Kodos the Excecutionor would have made for an interesting villian back story. A fellow who thought he was doing the right thing, but probably made things worse. :p
 
Lex Luthor always thinks he is doing what is right but it isn't...most of the time it is greed, fear and trying to get back at Superman. Even on Smallville Lex resorts to getting what he believes is his and getting back at Clark for not trusting him.

I like a villain that is just crazy...not like the Joker...like there is no right or wrong just crazy. There always seems some method in the Jokers madness.
 
Oh, evil is most definitely a thing. Or, to be more precise, an action. What about things like the Holocaust? Stalin's purges? Pol Pot? Or your more garden-variety murders, rapes, assaults, etc. Are you suggesting those are not evil? How could they NOT be? To suggest that something isn't evil is to imply that it's GOOD, and I can't conceive how any rational being could deduce that any of those things are good.
WWII is an interesting example. If, as you say, ‘evil is most definitely a thing’ or an ‘action’ then what about dropping nuclear bombs on cities, killing mostly civilians in the process?
By your own list of ‘actions’ you consider ‘evil’ I think that most certainly qualifies as ‘evil’. And since you’re not interested in looking at the motivations behind the act, well, there’s only the act to speak for itself, isn’t there?

Personally, I don’t believe that ‘evil’ is a thing. It is, essentially, an expression of a specific point of view (individual) or a common consensus (group). We, as a society, define what we consider to be ‘evil’. But it is merely a means of describing certain types of behavior that do not conform to what we believe to be ‘good’.
I don’t tend to view people as inherently ‘good’ or ‘evil’. I think it simply doesn’t explain the way the world works and the way people behave day in and day out on this planet. People have certain motivations, needs and desires. Their lives are largely defined by trying to satisfy these in some form or other. I think this applies to people who are ‘good’ as much as it does to people who are ‘evil’.
The question of who falls into which particular category depends on your own perspective and your social values. Or another way of putting it is that people tend to be on different parts of the curve describing what it means to be human. For me, what makes Hitler’s actions so terrible and unbearable is NOT that I think he was ‘evil’ but to think that he was a human being just like myself, just like everyone else. To think that such atrocities could come from one of us is what’s frightening in my mind.
And that, I guess, is why I find villains (to get back to the thread) whose motivations I can see and ‘understand’ so much more intimidating and effective. “The Emperor” is a cool villain, for sure. But, honestly, I don’t find him to be very scary. He’s a comic villain who provides a few chills but most of all some fun, really.
I find a character such as Helena Cain from nuBSG, for example, to be far more effective as a villain (some will probably argue that she isn’t but that’s for another discussion, I guess). You can see why she does what she does. And that’s what’s frightening in my mind.
 
^ I see. So what would you call all of those things I mentioned? Misunderstood? :rolleyes:

Things can have a reason and still be evil. Some sick pervert might like to kill children, for example, and give a reason why they do that, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still evil. (At least I hope we can all agree that killing children is evil.
I can't help but be remInded of Peter Lorre's character in M, where he does just that because he's deeply mentally disturbed - not moustache-twirling at all, no sir.

I don't
For instance, Nero. Yes, it's too bad his planet was blown up. Maybe it gives him a good excuse to exact revenge in a similar manner. But wouldn't it be cool if he just decided to start blowing up planets just for the hell of it?
The problem with Nero is that there's some vague handwaving about him having complex motivations but he's played out as a standard simplistically evil villain.
Except the bad guy *is* perfectly justified in their own mind.

So? Just because they think they're justified doesn't mean they're RIGHT.

Which is typically the tack taken for a complex villain - his motivations make sense, but he's the bad guy. If the story is actually uncertain about whose side it is on, then he may simply be a complex antagonist.
 
This is the wrong place to have a discussion about good and evil. I would go out on a limb and say most of the people here do not believe in the concept, just like they do not believe there is a right and a wrong. People are pretty much free to do whatever they like is the Trekbbs mantra.

There are just too many intelligent, well read people here to accept anything so simple as good and evil.
 
Bricktop is about as patently evil as I can tolerate a character with few motivations. Money's about it I think. He's such a mean sonuvabitch, I can only assume he's clinically psychotic. He'd feed his own mum to the pigs over a grand I think.

000SNC_Alan_Ford_006.jpg


Not a "moustache twirling villain", just a terrible soul you wish didn't have a real life counterpart and yet know in the back of your head probably exists.
 
I will simply go back to the original post of this thread here.


For instance, Nero. Yes, it's too bad his planet was blown up. Maybe it gives him a good excuse to exact revenge in a similar manner. But wouldn't it be cool if he just decided to start blowing up planets just for the hell of it?

Eh, but why? It wouldn't make sense. And stories who don't make sense are badly written stories.

Virtually nobody in human history blew something up "just for the hell of it". Even Adolf Hitler or Osama bin Laden blew things up because they saw it as a means to an end. They had a plan, a goal they tried to achieve.

So what you're saying is that "evil" should be used as a synonym for "lacking motive". If anything, I'd prefer to see it as a synonym for "criminal" and "unethical".



One example of pure evil is the Emperor. That's a guy who liked to blow planets up to cause terror. I liked that sumbitch.

See what I wrote above. From the Emperor's point of view, he had a reason for using the Death Star. There was an ongoing rebellion against his Empire. A rebellion which might threaten the survival of his Empire. So he started to go after planets supporting the rebellion. And he thought that a show of force by making an example of Alderaan would make other worlds' (or those planets' political elites, as it was the case with Alderaan and his nobility) think twice before supporting the rebellion in any way again.

So, what the Emperor did was criminal, (deliberately) cruel, unethical, and immoral. But like most criminals, he had a motive. He wanted to save his Empire and ultimately defend his unquestioned position of power.
 
He's such a mean sonuvabitch, I can only assume he's clinically psychotic.

That's a good point actually. If a villain isn't supposed to become a one-dimensional cardboard character he has to feature one of two characteristics: either he has a logical motive or he is mentally disturbed.

Unfortunetaly, most of the "crazy" villains aren't very well done either and often become cardboard characters themselves. The Dark Knight's Joker is probably an excellent example for the few skillfully written villains with "mental health problems". I guess that's because the Joker was written as a consistent character and not as crazy "just for the hell of it" (nobody is insane "just for the hell of it" as well).
 
So what you're saying is that "evil" should be used as a synonym for "lacking motive". If anything, I'd prefer to see it as a synonym for "criminal" and "unethical".

I thought that's what it was...
But you're saying you want them to be criminal and unethical for absolutely no reason. In other words, you just want them to be nuts.

I mean, a sociopathic villain would be fine every now and then, doing evil things just because they're crazy, but that would get old real quick.
 
I think maybe part of the disconnect here is the people who don't believe in evil, or good for that matter, have never had something truly evil happen to them or theirs.

It's all well and good to talk about the psychology behind someone's actions or how interesting you think they'd be based on such and such a motivation, or what logical construct you can errect to justify not using the word, but if a man broke into your house right now, tied you up and made you watch as he raped and then murdered your wife, it's not going to matter much whether he did it because he was abused as a child or because it was Tuesday and he just wanted to. It would be objectively wrong in any scenario, with no possible mitigating justification and thus evil.

Evil is palpable. When you encounter it being carried out, you will know it as something real and recognize the person doing it as evil because of the act.
 
It's all well and good to talk about the psychology behind someone's actions or how interesting you think they'd be based on such and such a motivation, or what logical construct you can errect to justify not using the word, but if a man broke into your house right now, tied you up and made you watch as he raped and then murdered your wife, it's not going to matter much whether he did it because he was abused as a child or because it was Tuesday and he just wanted to.
So what you're saying is for us to believe in good or evil we have to be intellectually compromised? If anything, that's an argument that demeans the integrity of the idea that there are good and evil acts or persons.

In other words: 'Yes, psychology is all well and good, but wait until you're unable to think straight - then you'll understand!'
 
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