Why can't science and religion just get along?

[Luther Sloan]

Iguana:

As I said. Don't shoot the messenger. But yet you brought out your rifle and shot me anyways. As for my witness to you? God wants Christians to tell others about His Word (The Bible). Jesus himself said..."Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." But if that offends some. Then I can't help that. I am just the messenger. So please don't shoot me.

Also, you can say that other parts of the world believed the world was round but others didn't. But the fact of the matter is that the Bible got it RIGHT from day one. I mean, it wasn't like the Bible said... "Hey, guys the World is round." No. It was subtly put in there. And those two little tidbits of information turned out to be correct. And that's not the ONLY scripture verses that keeps getting it RIGHT over and over and over.


Sources:
~Matthew 3:2
http://kingjamesbible.com/B40C003.htm

 

[Professor Zoom]

But the fact of the matter is that the Bible got it RIGHT from day one.

Um. No. it didn't. As others have pointed out, there were people BEFORE the Bible saying the Earth was round. So, sure, the Bible was right about the Earth being round, however, it was a little late to the party.

AND, I'm still waiting for you to reconcile your belief in the Bible in TOTALITY with the idea of stoning. Do you think stoning is an acceptable form of punishment or no?

 

[StarryEyed]

No, the Bible sure as hell didn't get it right. Try posting the complete Bible verse you cited earlier. It very obviously describes a flat, circular Earth with a solid, domed sky. There are also multiple references to Earth's pillars and there is story in the NT about Satan taking Jesus to the top of a high mountain where they could see all the kingdoms of the world - only possible on a flat earth.

Then we have PI=3, bats as birds, rabbits chewing the cud, houses contracting leprosy and illness caused by demonic possession.

Science doesn't support the Bible - it demolishes it.

 

[Luther Sloan]

That's bullshit. People knew the Earth was round at least from the time of Pythagoras (600 BC). The idea that in the Middle Age people believes the Earth was flat was conjured by an American writer Washington Irwin in the 1828. And the idea that Columbus was inspired by the Bible instead of previous geographical treaties is a completely fanciful notion.

And proof on that is the The Farnese Atlas which was created in the 2nd century and show Atlas carrying a globe. This statue is known to have been a copy of an even earlier Greek statue.

I wish I could remember which book I read it in where a Viking said that the Earth had to be bowl-shaped because that is the only way to explain the horizon. This remark was made about 400 years before Columbus.

I also came across when Viking account in which the writer described the Northern Aurora. He said something like "some people think it is dragon's breath, but I think it is caused by light reflecting off the northern ice' and he added "that he thought that such lights must also appear at the most southern parts of the word. This meant he realised there was southern hemisphere. If Vikings were aware of this than they also realised that two 'bowls' made a globe. He however was not right about what caused the lights.

Miss Chicken:

Yes. But people didn't have the internet back then to communicate the idea that the World was indeed round. The fact that the Bible got it right in the first place (subtly in scripture verses) tells you that it is chocked full of truth time and time again.

And Luther Sloan - Christopher Columbus never sailed around the world. The first crew to do so - several years after Columbus's death - was Ferdinand Magellan's crew though Magellan himself was killed on the voyage.

Yes. I know that. the words in my previous post said...

"is was the Scriptures that inspired Christopher Columbus to sail around the world "

I was speaking in terms of his initial goals (i.e. in proving that the World was not flat). And not what he actually accomplished.

Well, sorry if I wasn't more clearer on that point (when describing it).

 

[Professor Zoom]

I was speaking in terms of his initial goals (i.e. in proving that the World was not flat). And not what he actually accomplished.

Columbus's goal WASN'T to prove that the world was round. It was to get to India FASTER by going West rather than East.

He wanted to create a more valuable trade route.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Um. No. it didn't. As others have pointed out, there were people BEFORE the Bible saying the Earth was round. So, sure, the Bible was right about the Earth being round, however, it was a little late to the party.

Zoom:

But people didn't communicate like we do today (i.e. the internet). The fact that the Bible got it right (subtly) suggests that it's truths are tested time and again.

AND, I'm still waiting for you to reconcile your belief in the Bible in TOTALITY with the idea of stoning. Do you think stoning is an acceptable form of punishment or no?

I have already said that Jesus himself reconciled this in one statement.

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."

~Matthew 5:38-39

http://kingjamesbible.com/B40C005.htm

 

[iguana_tonante]

As I said. Don't shoot the messenger. But yet you brought out your rifle and shot me anyways. (...) I am just the messenger. So please don't shoot me.

Dude, no one is shooting you here. This is a discussion board. If you don't like your beliefs and behaviors discussed, leave them out of here. Saying "I think you are wrong and here's why is" is hardly genocidal. Nobody is shooting you, nobody is persecuting you. You may want to check your hyperboles at the door.

Also, you can say that other parts of the world believed the world was round but others didn't.

So you admit you had no idea what you were talking about, yes?

But the fact of the matter is that the Bible got it RIGHT from day one. I mean, it wasn't like the Bible said... "Hey, guys the World is round." No. It was subtly put in there. And those two little tidbits of information turned out to be correct. And that's not the ONLY scripture verses that keeps getting it RIGHT over and over and over.

You mean, one or two words that, after at least three translations between different languages, maybe could be interpreted as that, if you squint your eyes hard enough. That's pretty weak, don't you think? And even if they meant that, given that people already knew that at that time, how would you guess it's supernatural in origin? The Iliad said that Troy was in Turkey: lo and behold, verily it is. So the Iliad was inspired by God, too? And which one? My money is on the Muses.

 

[John Picard]

I was speaking in terms of his initial goals (i.e. in proving that the World was not flat). And not what he actually accomplished.

Columbus's goal WASN'T to prove that the world was round. It was to get to India FASTER by going West rather than East.

He wanted to create a more valuable trade route.

Did he *REALLY* say that?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Columbus's goal WASN'T to prove that the world was round. It was to get to India FASTER by going West rather than East.
He wanted to create a more valuable trade route.

Zoom:

I am sure that was one among many goals that he had at the time. Just as there are many reasons why people want to make more money or do something that no one has ever accomplished before.

Besides, he did believe in a round world which went against popular belief. To assume that he didn't want to prove that point to people (when he believed against popular opinion) is sort of odd.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Navigation_plans

 

[Pingfah]

Erm, that completely contradicts what you are saying

Washington Irving's 1828 biography of Columbus popularized the idea that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans thought the Earth was flat.[16] In fact, the primitive maritime navigation of the time relied on the stars and the curvature of the spherical Earth. The knowledge that the Earth was spherical was widespread, and the means of calculating its diameter using an astrolabe was known to both scholars and navigators. A spherical Earth had been the general opinion of Ancient Greek science, and this view continued through the Middle Ages (for example, Bede mentions it in The Reckoning of Time). In fact Eratosthenes had measured the diameter of the Earth with good precision in the second century BC

 

[iguana_tonante]

Sweet mother of God and all her wacky nephews, this is getting more and more hilarious by the minute.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Dude, no one is shooting you here. This is a discussion board. If you don't like your beliefs and behaviors discussed, leave them out of here. Saying "I think you are wrong and here's why is" is hardly genocidal. Nobody is shooting you, nobody is persecuting you. You may want to check your hyperboles at the door.

Iguana:

Anyone can scroll back and see what you wrote to me. It wasn't nice, man.

Also, you can say that other parts of the world believed the world was round but others didn't.

I know that other parts of the world believed this. The fact that your saying that piece of information to me proves nothing but the fact that you are recalling information you read (somewhere) is what I meant. I mean, if the Bible had gotten it wrong. That would be one thing. But it didn't. The fact that it got it right by hinting at it in two scripture verses tells that it is pretty darn amazing. I mean, your acting like everyone had a telephone and the internet to cross communicate with each other back then. They didn't.

You mean, one or two words that, after at least three translations between different languages, maybe could be interpreted as that, if you squint your eyes hard enough. That's pretty weak, don't you think? And even if they meant that, given that people already knew that at that time, how would you guess it's supernatural in origin? The Iliad said that Troy was in Turkey: lo and behold, verily it is. So the Iliad was inspired by God, too? And which one? My money is on the Muses.

Still skeptical, my friend.
Just look at all of these little tidbits then...

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/scientific_facts_in_the_bible.html

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Luther,

Jesus said that not a tittle of the law would change, includiding all the passages about slavery and subigation of women, etc.

Question: You say the Bible is the word of God. And you know that it expresses the opinions of a transcendant universe-creator --- how?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Erm, that completely contradicts what you are saying

Washington Irving's 1828 biography of Columbus popularized the idea that Columbus had difficulty obtaining support for his plan because Europeans thought the Earth was flat.[16] In fact, the primitive maritime navigation of the time relied on the stars and the curvature of the spherical Earth. The knowledge that the Earth was spherical was widespread, and the means of calculating its diameter using an astrolabe was known to both scholars and navigators. A spherical Earth had been the general opinion of Ancient Greek science, and this view continued through the Middle Ages (for example, Bede mentions it in The Reckoning of Time). In fact Eratosthenes had measured the diameter of the Earth with good precision in the second century BC

Pingfah:

No. Not to what I was referring to. The fact that the Europeans believed that the world was still flat was an issue at the time. And he didn't believe with popular opinion of where he lived. He thought the world was more round. But the thing is that he was onto the clue that the rest of the world was right about the Earth being round.

The fact, that the Bible confirms it, means the Bible is more truer than you would like to think. Or the Bible just got lucky again... along with all the other little tidbits of factual information it has gotten right over the years.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Luther,

Jesus said that not a tittle of the law would change, includiding all the passages about slavery and subigation of women, etc.

Question: You say the Bible is the word of God. And you know that it expresses the opinions of a transcendant universe-creator --- how?

Flying Spaghetti Monster:

Show me the scripture verse you are referencing. It could be from a New Age Version of the Bible or you are taking the original verse out of context. Show the verse to me, and I will be happy to try and explain it to you.

 

[JarodRussell]

Show me the scripture verse you are referencing. It could be from a New Age Version of the Bible or you are taking the original verse out of context. Show the verse to me, and I will be happy to try and explain it to you.

What you can offer is just another interpretation of the verses.

And the English translation you are constantly quoting from is also far from being perfect. And what about Christians from non-English speaking countries? Are they all reading the wrong version?

 

[Pingfah]

Pingfah:

No. Not to what I was referring to. The fact that the Europeans believed that the world was still flat was an issue at the time. And he didn't believe with popular opinion of where he lived. He thought the world was more round. But the thing is that he was onto the clue that the rest of the world was right about the Earth being round.

Untrue.

Just take a look at these little tidbits then:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/history/1997Russell.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ljrw9swM1fAC&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=John+Chrysostom+%22flat+earth%22&source=bl&ots=y_8y4Yzr4A&sig=MrN_W9wekTGRQ0MSQoQ-atfy2O0&hl=en&ei=EDXQS6f7GcP88Aa4ws3KDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=John%20Chrysostom%20%22flat%20earth%22&f=false

It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat. A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c. BC), followed by Crates(2 c. BC), Strabo (3 c. BC), and Ptolemy (first c. AD), the sphericity of the earth was accepted by all educated Greeks and Romans.


snip

In my research, I looked to see how old the idea was that medieval Christians believed the earth was flat. I obviously did not find it among medieval Christians. Nor among anti-Catholic Protestant reformers. Nor in Copernicus or Galileo or their followers, who had to demonstrate the superiority of a heliocentric system, but not of a spherical earth. I was sure I would find it among the eighteenth-century philosophers, among all their vitriolic sneers at Christianity, but not a word.

I'm sorry for persecuting you Luther Sloan.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Luther: I'm not referring to any particular verse.

Please don't be so obtuse.

You claim that the Bible is the word of god.

So...
My question is:

How is it that you know that the Bible accurately states the opinion of a trascendant universe creator (which is what God is)?

 

[B.J.]

I'm not getting back into the religion/science debate (I'm still okay with both), but I believe that one of the major disagreements of Columbus' time was exactly *how big* the Earth was. They knew it was round, they just couldn't agree on a diameter. Unfortunately for Columbus (or fortunately, however you see it), he thought it was a lot smaller than it actually was, and thought he'd get to the Indies easily that way, and didn't count on another continent being in the way.

 

[Luther Sloan]

No, the Bible sure as hell didn't get it right. Try posting the complete Bible verse you cited earlier. It very obviously describes a flat, circular Earth with a solid, domed sky. There are also multiple references to Earth's pillars and there is story in the NT about Satan taking Jesus to the top of a high mountain where they could see all the kingdoms of the world - only possible on a flat earth.

Starry Eyed:

"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;"

~Matthew 4:8

http://kingjamesbible.com/B40C004.htm

There was no kingdoms in North America at the time, so looking across at the other side of the globe was not an issue. Also, although the line of sight of the horizon line (atop of Mount Everest does extend only a hundred miles or so) that doesn't mean the devil didn't have the power to zoom past atmospheric horizon lines and show him kingdoms beyond the normal viewable horizon line in the surrounding region). I mean, we don't after all know the nature of his powers or their range when he was using them with Jesus.