When you think about it, working together and doing right by your fellow man because it is the RIGHT thing to do and not because it will guarantee you paradise or 72 virgins or whatever after you die is a noble goal that transcends any and all religious dogma. Also, living your life in however you want to, so as long as it doesn't encroach on someone else's in any way, is also something to attain. So why all the hate over a secular society?
Why are so many Trek fans skittish about Trek's secular aproach?
- Thread starter blockaderunner
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I don't hate it, I just hate the fans to love that approach of trek who have a go at me for in trek rpg's playing a human who was raised on a world that did not have that approach to life. Not all humans were raised within the federation, not all humans had been turned into those as what my character calls (not me) soft-cocks.
Its unrealistic to assume every human has gone that way, its realistic to assume there's still the tainted sheep out there inside and outside the federation that are human.
Its unrealistic to assume every human has gone that way, its realistic to assume there's still the tainted sheep out there inside and outside the federation that are human.
well I think you generalize religion too much. My religion doesn't teach me to do right SO that I will be rewarded or so that I could dodge punishment. My religion also says do what it right because it IS the right thing to do. And right living leads to peace, prosperity and happiness.
As I have said in other threads "living your life however you want to" and "not encroaching" on the lives of others is very difficult to do, since we collectively affect one another.
We always have influence on one another, for good or for evil. Friends, neighbors, commercials, media, magazines, co-workers, family members, the guy driving the other way on the freeway. We are all connected. I believe there are perhaps only the rarest of circumstances where our actions and words do not affect other people.
I think living your life the right way is to realize this very thing.
As I have said in other threads "living your life however you want to" and "not encroaching" on the lives of others is very difficult to do, since we collectively affect one another.
We always have influence on one another, for good or for evil. Friends, neighbors, commercials, media, magazines, co-workers, family members, the guy driving the other way on the freeway. We are all connected. I believe there are perhaps only the rarest of circumstances where our actions and words do not affect other people.
I think living your life the right way is to realize this very thing.
Or so you'd like to hope. It's true that "no man is an island unto himself", but I doubt that interaction extends to telling someone else who to marry or what to eat or what to wear. What I do within my four walls, so as long as it doesn't effect you physically or emotionally in any shape or form, is none of your business. THAT'S where my problems lie. And that's what's appealing about a secular society.
CaptainHawk1
Commodore
Pefectly put. It's called piety for piety's sake and people who don't understand Faith automatically assume that because people of Faith try to live pious lives that they must be doing it for some grand reward as their ulterior motivation. That's the problem with secularism. It's materialistic by nature and it can't comprehend the nebulous concept of morality based motivations. People of Faith don't distinguish between morality and Faith as the two are one. Most people of Faith aren't trying to rack up points to get into Heaven.
Those that do, don't understand their Faith. Most people would not assume to be able to read the mind of God to determine what the criteria is. But they do understand right and wrong and are simply willing to take their own self-interest and motivation out of the scenario and leave it up yo God.
This is the problem that I have with fundamentalist and literalistic interpretation types. They're arrogant about the Word of God and they assume to be able to read God's mind.
And I don't agree with the premise of the secular world of Trek because religion has played a role on all of the series in one form or another and was respectful of it in each instance. Star Trek is full of metaphysical references, you the secularists just choose to ignore that.
Finally, the real question should be why are so many secular-progressive Trek fans so afraid of and outright hostile to Trek fans of Faith?
-Shawn
Before I expound here, let me say that I don't think these should be laws per say. I don't think that we should simply tell everyone what to do and think and eat and wear, etc.
That would in the very least make for a boring society.
But I'll quote the Fed president from TUC, "Just because we can do a thing, does not mean we must (or should) do that thing."
You want to be able to do anything you want in the 4 walls of your home, fair enough. But should you do everything that you want to do? Should I do everything that I want to do?
I guess the question for me goes beyond telling everyone what to do, and letting everyone be, but comes back to "doing the right thing because it is right", and when we are trying and succeeding in doing what is right, then we don't always do what we want to do and what we want is no longer so important.
CaptainHawk1
Commodore
I'm personally not bothered by people preaching the word or trying to bring others into their flock, the problem I have is when they don't quit or they are hostile to you if you don't believe what they do.
Honestly, the atheists on this board a far more aggressive and hostile than any Jehovah Witness or Mormon that's ever knocked on my door.
-Shawn
CaptainHawk1
Commodore
I take it that you're a Mormon?
Well, no offense was meant and I know a lot of Mormons and they are salt of the earth people.
The only thng that I don't like is when there's a big "No Soliciting/Private Property/Prosecuted For Criminal Prosecution, etc." sign in the front of my GATED Community and they go door-to-door anyway. They do the same thing at Wal Mart after Wal Mart has repeatedly told them not to.
That's not right and they are knowingly violating the Nevada Revised Statute (NRS 207.200) for criminal trespassing. If they want to go door-to-door in public neighborhoods, they can knock themselves out, but I don't pay the association fees to have my two-year-old woken from her nap on a Saturday afternoon.
Nothing personal against Mormons, but that just bugs me.
-Shawn
The biggest issue I have with Trek's approach to religion is that I think the idea that all human religions will be gone by the 23rd or 24th century and that all people will have somehow 'evolved beyond' the need for religion is preposterous. Just about as preposterous as the idea that we will suddenly have no need for money and that we will have limitless resources.
The time periods depicted in Star Trek are, what, a couple hundred years from our present time? Well, look back at the thousands of years of recorded human history. Is there anything you can find in there anywhere that suggests to you that somehow we will suddenly do away with all religion in such a short space of time as a couple hundred years? Something like 95% of the population worldwide right now professes a belief in a god. Yet in two hundred years that will drop to zero? Yeah, right.
You can not believe in God or religion if you like. And you can argue that a secular society is the best way to go. But to actually put forth the idea that the entire world will feel the same way in such a short space of time is just unrealistic.
The time periods depicted in Star Trek are, what, a couple hundred years from our present time? Well, look back at the thousands of years of recorded human history. Is there anything you can find in there anywhere that suggests to you that somehow we will suddenly do away with all religion in such a short space of time as a couple hundred years? Something like 95% of the population worldwide right now professes a belief in a god. Yet in two hundred years that will drop to zero? Yeah, right.
You can not believe in God or religion if you like. And you can argue that a secular society is the best way to go. But to actually put forth the idea that the entire world will feel the same way in such a short space of time is just unrealistic.
trevanian
Rear Admiral
Honestly, the atheists on this board a far more aggressive and hostile than any Jehovah Witness or Mormon that's ever knocked on my door.
-Shawn
Man, I wish I grew up in your neighborhood.
I think atheists may seem that way to you because many are brainwashed into thinking they're such a threat. I mean, the idea that republicans and americans fear atheists more than gays or racial minorities is amazing. You'd think people would be terrified of folks who believe in imaginary things so hard that they will kill for it, but NOoooo.
I haven't believed in any traditional religion since I was a kid, but that was just common sense. Anybody who gets years of catechism and dogma crammed in their ear OUGHT to kick all that shit out and look at things objectively before reassessing.
Lightinspire
Lieutenant Commander
In a lot of ways I see Trek as pushing the idea that Humanoids are God within themselves. I can't give direct quotes or references to episodes, it is just what I come away with.
john titor
Captain
I love star treks approach to religion, it depicts a future where irrational belief systems disappear for humans. Trek is all about the ideal, so its unimportant whether its realistic or not, subspace doesn't exist and the eugenics wars didn't happen last decade but so what. One thing I don't get is how a persons politics, taste in music and so on can be up for debate, but religion is placed on this pedestal. Its ridiculous.
I take it that you're a Mormon?
Well, no offense was meant and I know a lot of Mormons and they are salt of the earth people.
The only thng that I don't like is when there's a big "No Soliciting/Private Property/Prosecuted For Criminal Prosecution, etc." sign in the front of my GATED Community and they go door-to-door anyway. They do the same thing at Wal Mart after Wal Mart has repeatedly told them not to.
That's not right and they are knowingly violating the Nevada Revised Statute (NRS 207.200) for criminal trespassing. If they want to go door-to-door in public neighborhoods, they can knock themselves out, but I don't pay the association fees to have my two-year-old woken from her nap on a Saturday afternoon.
Nothing personal against Mormons, but that just bugs me.
-Shawn
Oh I didn't take any offense, I was just going along with your post.
Yeah the missionaries shouldn't go into places where there are signs that specifically say they shouldn't be there.. I tried to heed those rules when I was in that situation.
Captain X
Rear Admiral
No brainwashing involved here, and to be frank that attitude is part of the problem. Like I said, I just don't like being preached to.
I do too, that's why I'm agnostic.
CaptainHawk1
Commodore
What the crap is this? Oh, I see, another vile ad hominem attack from an atheist who doesn't know what he's talking about. 'Republicans and Americans?' As if they're mutually exclusive. And are you suggesting that Republicans and Americans should fear gays and minorites more than ahteists? Do you ever think shit through before you post? As both an American and a Republican, I don't have any fear of minorities or homosexuals, but thanks for playing.Honestly, the atheists on this board a far more aggressive and hostile than any Jehovah Witness or Mormon that's ever knocked on my door.
-Shawn
Man, I wish I grew up in your neighborhood.
I think atheists may seem that way to you because many are brainwashed into thinking they're such a threat. I mean, the idea that republicans and americans fear atheists more than gays or racial minorities is amazing. You'd think people would be terrified of folks who believe in imaginary things so hard that they will kill for it, but NOoooo.
Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about with being hostile. I don't fear atheists I just find them generally hostile and condescending... just like you've so brilliantly demonstrated because you're better than me because you're an atheist.
Faith has nothing to do with objectivity as it's not science which is why I disagree with the idea of teaching intelligent design in science classes when that's a philosophical/metaphysical discussion.
It's quite obvious that you didn't pay attention because you don't understand what The Catechism or Dogma are.
You fall into the classic trap that all atheists fall into of defining Faith as superstitious beliefs. Faith has nothing to do with what you believe in, it's knowledge of Truth, whatever that may be for someone's particular Faith.
People of Faith aren't irrational because they have Faith. For the most part, their spirituality and centers them and they're content with themselves and their place in the Universe. People of Faith are lawyers, scientists, doctors, politicians, teachers, etc. People of faith are guided by their Faith when they objectively look at the Universe around them.
So whereas, people of Faith on this board are generally tolerant and kind to atheists like yourself, it would simply be courteous on your part not to bash them or their Faith every moment that you get.
-Shawn
trevanian
Rear Admiral
What the crap is this? Oh, I see, another vile ad hominem attack from an atheist who doesn't know what he's talking about. 'Republicans and Americans?' As if they're mutually exclusive. And are you suggesting that Republicans and Americans should fear gays and minorites more than ahteists? Do you ever think shit through before you post? As both an American and a Republican, I don't have any fear of minorities or homosexuals, but thanks for playing.Honestly, the atheists on this board a far more aggressive and hostile than any Jehovah Witness or Mormon that's ever knocked on my door.
-Shawn
Man, I wish I grew up in your neighborhood.
I think atheists may seem that way to you because many are brainwashed into thinking they're such a threat. I mean, the idea that republicans and americans fear atheists more than gays or racial minorities is amazing. You'd think people would be terrified of folks who believe in imaginary things so hard that they will kill for it, but NOoooo.
Again, this is exactly what I'm talking about with being hostile. I don't fear atheists I just find them generally hostile and condescending... just like you've so brilliantly demonstrated because you're better than me because you're an atheist.
Faith has nothing to do with objectivity as it's not science which is why I disagree with the idea of teaching intelligent design in science classes when that's a philosophical/metaphysical discussion.
It's quite obvious that you didn't pay attention because you don't understand what The Catechism or Dogma are.
You fall into the classic trap that all atheists fall into of defining Faith as superstitious beliefs. Faith has nothing to do with what you believe in, it's knowledge of Truth, whatever that may be for someone's particular Faith.
People of Faith aren't irrational because they have Faith. For the most part, their spirituality and centers them and they're content with themselves and their place in the Universe. People of Faith are lawyers, scientists, doctors, politicians, teachers, etc. People of faith are guided by their Faith when they objectively look at the Universe around them.
So whereas, people of Faith on this board are generally tolerant and kind to atheists like yourself, it would simply be courteous on your part not to bash them or their Faith every moment that you get.
-Shawn
First, I never claimed to be atheist (I'm agnostic.) I simply respect them, and figuring agnosticism is considered by christians to be nearly as untrustworthy (between faith and food choices -- I'm vegan -- I'm a minority of a minority of a minority, hated by everyone) as saying 'no god.'
After the typical science/spirituality mindfuck issues, I reached a comfortable ease as far as spirituality in my 20s (my truth is that there isn't one truth but we can define ourselves and act truthfully regardless), and haven't had too many crises with respect to that since. No proseltyzing though. It has for the most part extended to others with the caveat, 'believe what you want, just don't do it aggressively out in the street and frighten the horses.' But my experience of christian fundamentalists (you're quite right that I shouldn't have said republican and american, it was kneejerk of me, I should have specified) is that you become an ongoing target once you're perceived as different, and it is a bellicose response. The idea that this kind of group can sustain a hatred greater than they have for gays staggers me, because you'd figure they couldn't be more extreme than that.
I AM dismissive of a lot of folks who seem to need organized religion as a crutch, but I'm more fearful of the hatred those groups conjure up, against those with different beliefs (including 'none of the above'), because I've seen way too much crap go down with people losing jobs over it as a root cause and not being able to fight it. Shoot, I made the mistake of taking a job managing a bookstore operated by a supposedly secular order in the 90s, and whaddya know, I'm no longer the golden boy when I decline their offers to sit in with the masons. They weren't any more enlightened or progressive than the fundamentalists, but they covered it with a kind of elitism. If that's the kind of message I gave off, I apologize.
I've seen others cover a lot of the other stuff that I would've said, but here's what I would add to it.
One thing I do not like about Trek's portrayal of human society--and why in my fanfic I've found myself moving away from Federation viewpoints--is that what I see is a very hypocritical approach. They preach tolerance towards all worlds...yet no tolerance for diversity amongst their own ranks, apparently. But for humans, you can only be "diverse" if you agree with a secular-progressive mindset? Yuck. I think I'd emigrate, if I lived in that universe.
One thing I do not like about Trek's portrayal of human society--and why in my fanfic I've found myself moving away from Federation viewpoints--is that what I see is a very hypocritical approach. They preach tolerance towards all worlds...yet no tolerance for diversity amongst their own ranks, apparently. But for humans, you can only be "diverse" if you agree with a secular-progressive mindset? Yuck. I think I'd emigrate, if I lived in that universe.
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