Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards them?

[Mr. Scott]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The question might be, why can't human beings on our own Planets get along with each other?

I think in a lot of ways, the relations between humans and other galaxy members is not that much different.

The Federation is more or less a company of nations, not that much different than the European Union or the British Commonwealth. In the storyline, humans more or less founded this organization and invited other Planets to join in as well.

Starfleet is located on Earth in San Francisco. (Could you imagine the real estate prices in the Bay Area in the 24th Century?) The seat of government is in Paris, France. The Humans were saved by the Vulcans, but in less than 100 years, more or less threw the Vulcans "under the bus" as it were. Racism against Vulcans has been around ever since. (Note, the Vulcans can be racist clods under the surface also.)

But still, the Vulcans were one of the most benevolant races. Humans to other species are an "unknown quantity", a race that went from nothing to the fourth of the galaxy in 200 years.

Star Trek races are a bit comical, and writers the last 40 years have written about them, with different writers having different ideas, etc.

Klingons do not like the Federation because they are a conquering race. Especially before the TOS period, the Klingons were much like Earth's Vikings. They would invade a place, take what they wanted, occupy the World, or move on.

They do have ethics however. They will only fight and kill someone worthy of them fighting and killing. It is not honorable to kill someone weaker than you for example. The Empire at the 23rd Century was a loose confederation, with a lot of rouge ships and squardrans doing their own thing.

The Federation shows up and tells them that they cannot raid Planets and be arseholes. The Federation was more than willing to defend any Planet that asks for their assistance, which pitted them against the Klingons, Romulans and later the Cardassians. The Federation position to any Planet was, "You can be our friends or we will leave you alone. If you need us, we are here."

The Romulans have a vast empire that they want to increase. Their Empire is also of expand and conquer. Planet is xenophobic, racist and militeristic. They do not like that Vulcan has joined this Federation, since a desire of theirs is to conquer Vulcan and reunite the peoples. The racism and the protection of Vulcan is their hatred of Humans and the Federation.

Cardassians are a technologically advanced race but are poorer in resources. The Planet and system is ran by a ruthless military dictatorship. They are trying to defend their borders and add buffer states between them and the Romulans and Federation.

Breen are just guys in helmets. I like the Breen however, except for their shrillllll language!

 

[EnsignRicky]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

'Cause nobody likes a self righteous, meddling, goodie goodie.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Milky Way Galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. 2 light years is minuscule. The Solar System is only about .00002% of that. Seems minuscule.

There are a total of 115 individual stars in 81 star systems within 20 light years from the Earth. If each of those star systems claimed a 2 light year bubble that would be 334 cubic ly's out of 33,510 cubic ly's, or 1.15 percent inside the bubbles.

That would live 98.85% as open space, still looks to be minuscule. Or am I not understanding?

'Cause nobody likes a self righteous, meddling, goodie goodie.

The Federation is the Alpha Quadrant's Ned Flanders?

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Federation is more or less a company of nations, not that much different than the European Union or the British Commonwealth.

It's really not. The amount of power and the kinds of powers the Federation has -- the ability to make binding laws in its territory, the ability to declare martial law on its Member planets, the ability to conduct foreign relations and declare war on behalf of its members -- marks the Federation as a genuine, sovereign state, not an association of sovereign states.

In the storyline, humans more or less founded this organization and invited other Planets to join in as well.

We don't know that. We've never seen the Founding of the Federation. We do know that Earth played the role of "honest broker" who convinced Vulcan, Andor, and Tellar to start trusting one-another, but, for all we know, it could have been the Tellarites who decided to replace the Coalition of Planets with the Federation.

The Humans were saved by the Vulcans,

There is no evidence of that whatsoever. In fact, the Humans' most common complaints against the Vulcans were that they refused to share Vulcan technology and that they "held us back" by pressuring the United Earth government to prevent United Earth's deep space program from launching major exploratory operations until the launch of the NX-01 finally occurred against the Vulcans' wishes.

The implication seems to be that the Vulcan government had undue influence on the United Earth government -- that the UE government constantly subordinated itself to Vulcan's interests, reducing Earth to a Vulcan client state or satellite state rather than allowing Earth to become a truly independent, sovereign world. Think the relationship between the United Kingdom and India during the Raj.

Earth did not "throw Vulcan under the bus" any more than India threw Britain under the bus. Earth simply asserted its own equality.

But still, the Vulcans were one of the most benevolant races.

Whaaaat? Was Vulcan being one of the most benevolent of worlds when it waged a proxy war against Andor on the planet Coridan, propping up one side in the Coridanite civil war while the Andorians propped up another? Was Vulcan being benevolent when it was interfering in the internal affairs of United Earth by pressuring its government to keep out of deep space, thus re-enforcing Earth's status as a Vulcan puppet world? Was Vulcan being benevolent when it was spying on Andor in violation of treaty, duping its own clerics on P'Jem to provide plausible deniability? Was Vulcan being benevolent when it began repressing its own domestic dissidents, like the Syrannites? Was Vulcan being benevolent when it prepared to launch an invasion of Andor on the basis of falsified evidence they were developing a WMD? Was Vulcan being benevolent when it refused to aid Earth after it suffered a devastating attack from the Xindi?

I'm sorry, but the Vulcan of the 22nd Century was nothing more than an imperial power that used its advanced wealth and technology to dominate other worlds and strengthen its own hegemony over local space.

The Empire at the 23rd Century was a loose confederation, with a lot of rouge ships and squardrans doing their own thing.

There's no evidence that the Klingon Empire of the 23rd Century was anything other than what its name said -- an empire. That there were the occasion ships going rogue is not evidence that the Empire was actually a confederation.

 

[Mojochi]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

QUARK: Here, I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
GARAK: What is it?
QUARK: A human drink. It's called root beer.
GARAK: I don't know...
QUARK: Go ahead. Aren't you just a little bit curious?
[Garak hesitates a beat, but then takes a sip. He immediately makes a face.]
QUARK: What do you think?
GARAK: It's vile.
QUARK: I know. It's so bubbly and cloying and happy.
GARAK: Just like the Federation.
QUARK: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you start to like it.
GARAK: It's insidious.
QUARK: Just like the Federation.

I'd say that quote is the best summary of how antagonistic species view the Federation. The Federation does expand, incorporate new worlds, & mark out its territory, all the time. Plus, they do it in a way that is peaceful, & they can accomplish that, because it's impossible to resist what they represent. There is hardly any downside to joining, & so much to benefit from it

However, those that aren't members must consider it a very precarious threat to the status quo of the regimes that are often at the center of their own societies

It's simple really. The liberty they represent is a serious pain in the ass to the regimes that restrict those liberties in their own societies, & is at least viewed as probable subversion to their way of life. That's the message I get from it anyway

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Federation does expand, incorporate new worlds, & mark out its territory, all the time. Plus, they do it in a way that is peaceful ...

If you think that the Federation's more powerful neighbors are hostile towards the Federation, you can only imagine how the Federation's weaker neighbors feel about them.

Always living in fear that the Federation will "determine" that their civilization's natural development is not advancing at a normal rate. The Federation will gain the viewpoint is that they're not a living growing culture. Therefor the prime directive isn't in effect. Or the reverse, there might be a truly advanced society they is (hypothetically) more developed than the Federation in terms of philosophy, ethics and culture, but who lack one thing. A warp drive. Prior to the Federation arriving in their neck of the woods, they were quite happy to book passage aboard other species/races starships.

Once the Federation found out they possessed no warp drive of their own, obviously they had to be quarantined as a primitive culture. The surrounding civilizations, who had been providing interstellar transportation, would be convinced to agree with the Federation's position on applying the prime directive to this advanced (primitive) culture.

Too bad for them, huh?

.

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I have to admit, I'm a bit skeptical of some of the hypotheses proposed for why the Federation's neighbors are hostile. A lot of these ideas basically seem to boil down to, "They hate the Federation because it's so awesome."

All states behave in self-interested ways, and all states invariably have good reason to be pissed off by other states. I'm sure more than a few conflicts with the Federation were started as a result of Federation starships exploring an area that foreign states considered part of their spheres of influence, and I'm sure there's a lot of truth to Michael Eddington's claim in DS9's "For the Cause" that the Federation engages in an unstated policy of cultural imperialism.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I have to admit, I'm a bit skeptical of some of the hypotheses proposed for why the Federation's neighbors are hostile. A lot of these ideas basically seem to boil down to, "They hate the Federation because it's so awesome."

All states behave in self-interested ways, and all states invariably have good reason to be pissed off by other states. I'm sure more than a few conflicts with the Federation were started as a result of Federation starships exploring an area that foreign states considered part of their spheres of influence, and I'm sure there's a lot of truth to Michael Eddington's claim in DS9's "For the Cause" that the Federation engages in an unstated policy of cultural imperialism.

I just rewatched For the Cause yesterday, and you're right: I think Eddington's speech probably had a lot of truth.

And another thing I'd neglected to consider: we almost always see the galaxy through the eyes of devoted Starfleet officers. That be somewhat like viewing the world through the perspective of say, some of the noblest and sold-out American soldiers. Of course they're likely going to view their country in the most positive light, even if it's because of cognitive dissonance.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

cognitive dissonance.

Thank you for making me look that up, it's always good to know new things.

Warriors can be very pragmatic, Starfleet personnel might not so much be "sold out," as simply viewing the Federation as the lesser of all evils. It hard to say with various characters just how much they've bought into the Federation's company line. Picard definately seems to have, some of Picard's comments to Lily in FC suggests that Picard doesn't always seeing the real world in the full light of day. Kirk, from his comments to Captain Garth , shows that he understands the Federation's philosophy, but his statement to Anon Seven shows that his personal philosophy is a lot more realistic.

Eddington held the Federation to his own standards, when it eventual disappointed him by failing to measure up, he used his considerable training and skills to actively work against it. Sisko came across as less of a true believer, more of a man who didn't see any superior alternative to the Federation.

 

[MNM]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Federation does expand, incorporate new worlds, & mark out its territory, all the time. Plus, they do it in a way that is peaceful ...

If you think that the Federation's more powerful neighbors are hostile towards the Federation, you can only imagine how the Federation's weaker neighbors feel about them.

I'd expect they are quite happy that there is a relatively friendly superpower next door to them, one they know they can ask for help if threats such as the Borg come calling, and whom may give the likes of the Klingons, Romulans, Tholians etc cause to pause when they consider such "weaker" neighbours as their next target.

 

[Cepstrum]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

This is slightly off-topic and probably has been discussed endlessly elsewhere, but the discussion is making me rethink how "free" the UFP citizenry really is. Obviously there has to be law enforcement and rules, but it seems from what we've seen that the UFP is probably quite autocratic and that StarFleet has a disproportionate role in affairs. That could be one reason why other Powers (the big ones and in particular the non-aligned) are reluctant to adopt UFP hegemony with open-arms. It could mean giving up quite a bit of freedom.

For example, Bajor would be unable to employ its religious-based caste system. While that is probably a bad thing, there may be other, more innocuous things societies must relinquish as part of the UFP. Ultimately, as we've seen with the Maquis homeworlds, this means surrendering ultimate self-determination to the UFP government (or StarFleet!).

In this sense it's sort of like the USA or EU: there are many advantages to be gained by joining, but once you join, you must surrender some autonomy.

And to speak of the Great Powers, we must admit that they are not human (or even Vulcan), and thus they may prefer, for reasons unknowable to us, to remain suspicious and hostile. I should have given that more thought, for even though they recognize that, in general, the UFP is not a military threat, they may still wish to see it destroyed.

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

For example, Bajor would be unable to employ its religious-based caste system. While that is probably a bad thing, there may be other, more innocuous things societies must relinquish as part of the UFP. Ultimately, as we've seen with the Maquis homeworlds, this means surrendering ultimate self-determination to the UFP government (or StarFleet!).

Bajor had already abandoned its caste system as a result of the Occupation. Akoram Laan just tried unsuccessfully to re-instate it.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Why are so many of UFP's neighbours hostile towards the Federation?

Because the Federation is a formidable competitor, frustrating their desire to expand their power and territory:

You will notice that the Federation never once conquered some other civilization.
If you wish to join the Federation and you fulfill certain requirements, you may be accepted.
If you want to have nothing to do with the Federation - or your society fails to respect certain values the Federation is built upon (freedom, etc) the Federation will leave you alone - won't attack and subjugate you.
NO coercion involved in any scenario.

And the ones who are frustrated by the Federation usually are the ones with expansionistic/xenophobic tendencies.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

probably has been discussed endlessly elsewhere

It has, but never let that stop you. There is a on going debate as to just how much sovereignty a new member has to give up, and are all the Federation members "equal." Or are some more equal that others? It can't hurt the Human cause that both the Federation government and the headquarters of Starfleet are located on Earth. And all the other Federation's member can just suck on that.

For example, Bajor would be unable to employ its religious-based caste system. While that is probably a bad thing, there may be other, more innocuous things societies must relinquish as part of the UFP. Ultimately, as we've seen with the Maquis homeworlds, this means surrendering ultimate self-determination to the UFP government (or StarFleet!).

Bajor had already abandoned its caste system as a result of the Occupation. Akoram Laan just tried unsuccessfully to re-instate it.

I believe Cepstrum's point was that Bajor wouldn't have been able to have a religious-based caste system if they had choise too. The Federation planet Ardana (TCM) very obviously possesses a societal caste system, so the problem that the Federation would seem to have had with the Bajorian system was that it was religious-based. Not simply that it was a caste system.

Because the Federation is a formidable competitor, frustrating their desire to expand their power and territory:

Maybe not, in TOS the Klingons and the Romulans were close in enemies of the Federation, their borders touched. Near a century later, the Federation had expanded outward to the point where their borders had reach the far distant star system that held Bajor. But, inspite of this growth, the Klingons and the Romulans were still close to "the action," they had keep pace with the Federation's growth outwards into the galaxy. It wasn't even a case of them growing in three separate directions, regardless of what direction that the Federation grew, the two empires were already there or arrived soon after.

Doesn't sound like the Federation was "frustrating their desire to expand their power and territory." So their's (and others) problem with the Federation lays in other areas and matters. More likely they see Federation is a political, cultural or economic threat.

Perhaps the Klingon empire worried about the Federation's members interfering with their export market share and their access to foreign currency. It was said that there are poor worlds within the Klingon system and they must move outward if they are to survive. Might that be a reference to the Klingon's economic system. In the TOS episode Errand of Mercy, the Klingon Kor stated that this was the motivation for the Federation and the Klingons to go to war :

Kor: "You've tried to hem us in, cut off vital supplies, strangle our trade! "

Now does that sound like the Klingons have a territorial or political problem with the Federation?

Errand of Mercy was about a trade war.


[/SIZE]

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

This is slightly off-topic and probably has been discussed endlessly elsewhere, but the discussion is making me rethink how "free" the UFP citizenry really is. Obviously there has to be law enforcement and rules, but it seems from what we've seen that the UFP is probably quite autocratic and that StarFleet has a disproportionate role in affairs.

I really don't think there's any evidence of that. Yes, the Federation requires its Member States to yield their sovereignty to it, in the same way that any sovereign state requires its political subdivisions to yield their sovereignty to the state, but that doesn't mean they aren't free. A prime example is the caste thing -- yes, if Bajor wants to be a Federation Member State, it has to get rid of its caste-based system, but that only means that Bajoran citizens are more free than they would be if Bajor kept that system, since that Federation law protects citizens from discrimination.

Ultimately, as we've seen with the Maquis homeworlds, this means surrendering ultimate self-determination to the UFP government (or StarFleet!).

Well, that depends upon whether or not the Federation allows for its Member States to secede. We don't canonically know -- though the novels do depict the Federation as allowing for Member States to secede (though not necessarily colonies that have not achieved Member State status in their own right).

ETA:

There is a on going debate as to just how much sovereignty a new member has to give up, and are all the Federation members "equal." Or are some more equal that others?

I think it's pretty clear that colonies, whether they fall under direct Federation jurisdiction or are considered political subdivisions of a Federation Member State, are not considered political equals within the Federation system, but I see no evidence that Federation Member States are not all equal. Heck, the novels have even established that all Member States receive only a single Councillor on the Federation Council -- meaning that, literally, ever Member State has equal representation in the Federation government, even if some have much larger populations than others.

It can't hurt the Human cause that both the Federation government and the headquarters of Starfleet are located on Earth. And all the other Federation's member can just suck on that.

Actually, I don't really think that helps the "Human cause" at all. For one thing, we don't know what percentage of United Earth's population in the Federation era is non-Human; as the Federation capital planet, it's entirely possible that upwards of a quarter of Earth's population, and therefore of the Federation Member State United Earth's population, is non-Human, thereby giving non-Humans significant influence over U.E. politics.

Secondly, the fact that the Federation capital is Earth doesn't mean that United Earth necessarily carries disproportionate influence over the Federation government. Hell, for all we know, there might be strict laws in place to ensure that the United Earth government cannot influence the Federation government, and ensuring that the Federation Councillor from Untied Earth only has the kinds of influence that any adept Councillor might acquire.

Thirdly, I think having both the capital on Earth and the military headquarters on Earth might be said to hurt the "Human cause." After all, that makes Earth a much bigger target than Vulcan, Andor, or Tellar, the other Founding Members. One of the things that made last year's Star Trek film unique was that for once, a Federation planet other than Earth was in danger!

Bajor had already abandoned its caste system as a result of the Occupation. Akoram Laan just tried unsuccessfully to re-instate it.

I believe Cepstrum's point was that Bajor wouldn't have been able to have a religious-based caste system if they had choise too. The Federation planet Ardana (TCM) very obviously possesses a societal caste system, so the problem that the Federation would seem to have had with the Bajorian system was that it was religious-based. Not simply that it was a caste system.

Well, no, because "The Cloud Minders" makes it very clear that the Federation hadn't realized Ardana had a caste system before the Enterprise crew got there (apparently having rushed them into the Federation to compete with the Klingons), and that the Federation is going to force them to abolish that caste system. I mean, hell, the entire episode is about Good Federation Soldiers deciding to ignite a worker's revolution to battle that caste system!

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

AFAIK, Federation member worlds are pretty much left to run their own affairs as they see fit, with only two requirements: 1) there must be one world government, and 2) no caste based discrimination.

Seems pretty harmless, really. The Federation has the right to set requirements for membership. They clearly don't have MANY such requirements, so I don't see why these two would be such a big deal.

And it would nicely counter Eddington's claim that the Federation is as evil as the Borg - if that were true, then the Federation would force worlds to join when they don't want to, and obviously this is not the case. (They do, OTOH, have the right to 'make their case' as to why a world might want to join - to state the benefits that this world would gain if they did. To do so is not being evil or Borg-like, it's being pragmatic.)

The Federation will gain the viewpoint is that they're not a living growing culture. Therefor the prime directive isn't in effect.

Captain Kirk may have done that a couple of times, but this was mainly to counter a direct threat to his ship and crew. In 'The Return of the Archons' and 'The Apple', for example, if Kirk had NOT done what he had done, the Enterprise would have been destroyed. Kirk, as a captain, is entirely within his rights to try and neutralize that threat.

Once the Federation found out they possessed no warp drive of their own, obviously they had to be quarantined as a primitive culture.

Uh...no. It *is* standard Federation policy to avoid contact with any race that hadn't developed warp drive. Not to quarantine them, just leave them alone. Big difference there.

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

AFAIK, Federation member worlds are pretty much left to run their own affairs as they see fit, with only two requirements: 1) there must be one world government, and 2) no caste based discrimination.

Those are the only two that have been canonically established, but I'm sure there are more requirements than that. I doubt it would have taken Bajor's petition for Membership five years if it had just been those two.

I'd bet good money that the Federation also requires its Members to have some form of liberal democracy in place to protect individual and group rights and to ensure a representative form of government.

And it would nicely counter Eddington's claim that the Federation is as evil as the Borg - if that were true, then the Federation would force worlds to join when they don't want to, and obviously this is not the case. (They do, OTOH, have the right to 'make their case' as to why a world might want to join - to state the benefits that this world would gain if they did. To do so is not being evil or Borg-like, it's being pragmatic.)

To a point, yes. But if the Federation's fundamental goal is to persuade every single foreign state to become Federation Member States, well, that does carry a certain amount of cultural imperialism. Is that a bad thing? Not from a Federation perspective, but it certainly can be from someone else's perspective.

Obviously Eddington is engaging in hyperbole when he says the Federation is more insidious than the Borg, but I think the underlying critique that the Federation is culturally imperialistic towards cultures it views as its technological equals -- and, by the way, the Federation's paternalistic attitude towards pre-warp cultures is pretty prejudiced, I'd add -- is probably valid.

Once the Federation found out they possessed no warp drive of their own, obviously they had to be quarantined as a primitive culture.

Uh...no. It *is* standard Federation policy to avoid contact with any race that hadn't developed warp drive. Not to quarantine them, just leave them alone. Big difference there.

To be fair, we don't know what Federation policy is towards pre-warp worlds that foreign states attempt to contact. It's possible that they do quarantine worlds that have not yet had their First Contact and prevent other worlds from contacting them, and it's possible that they don't. We don't know.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

But if the Federation's fundamental goal is to persuade every single foreign state to become Federation Member States

That's a mighty big if.

 

[Sci]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

But if the Federation's fundamental goal is to persuade every single foreign state to become Federation Member States

That's a mighty big if.

But considering the fact that went from 4 or 5 worlds in 2161 to rivaling the Klingon Empire in only a century, it's probably not an unreasonable interpretation of Federation behavior. Eddington was probably right when he noted that one of the reasons the Federation gave the Cardassians industrial replicators in the wake of the Klingon invasion was their desire to eventually see the Cardassian Union become a Federation Member State. Ronald D. Moore commented on that scene and noted that one of the reasons that Sisko was so pissed off after Eddington's transmission was that when it came to his description of the Federation's expansion goals, he was right.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

But if the Federation's fundamental goal is to persuade every single foreign state to become Federation Member States

That's a mighty big if.

But considering the fact that went from 4 or 5 worlds in 2161 to rivaling the Klingon Empire in only a century, it's probably not an unreasonable interpretation of Federation behavior. Eddington was probably right when he noted that one of the reasons the Federation gave the Cardassians industrial replicators in the wake of the Klingon invasion was their desire to eventually see the Cardassian Union become a Federation Member State. Ronald D. Moore commented on that scene and noted that one of the reasons that Sisko was so pissed off after Eddington's transmission was that when it came to his description of the Federation's expansion goals, he was right.

First - cannon evidence show us starfleet refusing admittance into the federation for various species rather than trying to get as many worlds 'in' as possible.

Second - if the federation tries to influence other worlds to adopt its values by helping them and being nice to them, I say 'Good for the federation'.
You may have noticed how federation help NEVER comes with strings attached aka 'we'll help you only if you adopt our values', etc.

You find such cultural influence morally lacking? I disagree - indeed, it is a betrayal of your morals to see people suffering due to their social order and NOT help alleviate the problem.