Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards them?

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

My initial, wise-ass answer was that any power the Federation has encountered that wasn't hostile to them is now a part of the Federation.

Heh, it's probably true. Thing is, aside from super-tech, there are only two ways to become a large interstellar power. Either you have multiple species peacefully joining each other (like the Federation) or you have one species conquering other species (like the other empires). Simple colonization of uninhabited planets will never make you big enough. The first process results in cultures naturally inclined to cooperate and thus eventually futher integrate (it's possible the UFP absorbed such smaller 'federations'). In the second case you have a culture geared for expansion and imperialism - naturally distrustful and in fear of the first kind of power.

 

[SpyOne]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Just to remind everyone, true altruism means to reduce your own fitness in order to improve the fitness of someone else to your own detriment.

Apparently we define altruism differently.
al·tru·ism
–noun 1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others ( opposed to egoism).

e·go·ism
–noun 1. the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness ( opposed to altruism).

For my actions to be altruistic, they need not be detrimental to me at all. They merely need to be beneficial to others and done without regard for benefit to me.
Even the Science Dictionary says altruism is "cooperative behavior that is detrimental or without reproductive benefit to the individual but that contributes to the survival of the group to which the individual belongs." Emphasize the word "or" in that sentence: altruism need not be harmful to me, it just is not of direct benefit to me either.

It's gotten a bit watered down over time. Many would regard giving money to a beggar because it makes you feel good to do so to be altruism, because the benefit to you is intangible and/or not the result of anything the beggar does.

I grant that what the Federation does may not be altruism. It is quite likely that they give aid because they see that as beneficial to themselves in the long run. "Enlightened self-interest". But that doesn't impact the meaning of the word: if they are truly doing it without self interest, then it is altruism.

 

[SpyOne]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Call it insidous all you want, but it isn't really. (snip) How on earth is that not a good thing?

Here's how it might be a bad thing: what if you value your unique culture. You have your own approach to "peace, stability, wealth, development and freedom for everyone", and want to achieve those goals through your own culture.
Contact with the Federation tends to force those changes upon your culture, usually by replacing bits of yours with bits of theirs.
Worse, they don't just come right out and say "we're going to be taking you over and replacing your culture with our own", it just happens. You deal with them enough, you start to become like them. That's what Quark and Garak mean when they call the Federation (and root beer) "insidious". They recognize that their growing like of the Federation is fueled, yes in part by learning that the Federation has qualities they already admired in others, but also because they themselves are changing, and beginning to value the same things the Federation does.
And they never realized it was happening until it was too late.
The word "insidious" does have some negative connotations; most of its meanings include other negative words like "harmful" and "deceit". But it is also particularly apt for the phenomenon. Insidious as in "stealthily treacherous", meaning the danger is not readily apparent. Also as in "operating or proceeding in an inconspicuous or seemingly harmless way but actually with grave effect".

Don't get me wrong, I like the Federation. It is hard to dislike anything that promotes peace and brotherhood and all that. I admire the goals and methods of the Federation. But I can also understand how another culture, especially one that resists change, might view the Federation as the most dire threat in the universe. In fact, I wonder if that's what got the Borg so riled up: they recognize the danger the Federation poses, that trade and diplomacy with the Federation would just be the first steps on a path that ends with the Collective getting assimilated. It would also explain why they aren't just nibbling away at the Federation every year: they need to minimize contact until conquest, and conquest must be swift to minimize cultural contamination.

 

[Lord Garth]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Now here's something that would make things murky:

How does the Federation draw its borders? What if there's a planet with 21st/22nd Century technology that achieves warp drive but doesn't want to join the Federation? They don't even want diplomatic relations with them. But, they're interested in opening up a dialogue with the Cardassians? Except for one thing, this emergent world is surrounded by several other Federation planets?

Suppose the Federation allows the Cardassians travel to this world, but at a later point the Federation and the Cardassians break off diplomatic relations because of a dispute over the Cardassians building up weapons? From this point on, Cardassian ships are not allowed into the Federation space which means they can no longer have passage to the emergent world. At this point, the Cardassians and the emergent world would say the Federation has no right to cut them off from each other, the Federation would demand that the Cardassians stop the weapons build up, the Cardassians would refuse but request the Federation give up something, the Federation refuses, and then -- just like that -- an instant border war.

By 2367, a cessation of hostilities is reached with a treaty, then the Federation and Cardassians spend the next three years hammering out whose land goes to who.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

^^^
In cases in which a non-aligned world may want to do business with a government that is presently hostile to the Federation, it may require a neutral third party--like the Ferengi, for example--to intervene on its behalf to facilitate things. Even so, a Ferengi transport or freighter may have to submit to a Starfleet "border inspection" to make sure it isn't carrying something that could be used against the Federation.

Sovereingty works both way, IMO. The Federation can recognize the rights of a non-aligned world, but non-aligned worlds have to recognize the Federation's rights too.

 

[CaptainStoner]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

You deal with them enough, you start to become like them. That's what Quark and Garak mean when they call the Federation (and root beer) "insidious".

Some of the brilliance of DS9. I think it was Nog who'd developed a taste for the insidious beverage.
I think I also remember Quark disapproving of Nog's friendship to Jake.
You also see the opposite, though, perhaps a "melting pot" effect: almost all the Starfleet officers on DS9 drink raktajino. (By that century, they must have finally found an antidote to caffeine: as yet there is none)
But, civilization itself was driven by trade and exchange of ideas, products, resources. Ultimately I don't think cultures lose themselves in this process. Some people will start drinking root beer, or chinese tea, music tastes are even more insidious - it is the nature of human cultures to change. When they stagnate, they begin to deteriorate. And alien cultures in ST are just an extension of human cultures on Earth. (Sorry, Spock. Everybody's human.)

 

[Captain Zog]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

In the end, it all comes down to interstellar imperialism. The Romulan, Cardassian and Dominion empires are militaristic and enpansionist by nature (as was the Klingon Empire in the 23rd century). As the Federation grew in strength, it became a bulwark against ongoing expansion for these empires. Conflict was inevitable.

 

[DevilEyes]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

You also see the opposite, though, perhaps a "melting pot" effect: almost all the Starfleet officers on DS9 drink raktajino. (By that century, they must have finally found an antidote to caffeine: as yet there is none)

Why would they want to find an antidote to caffeine? It's 70% of the reason why I drink coffee, even though I love the taste as well.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

How does the Federation draw its borders?

The Federation lays claim to, not just the star systems of it's members and protectorates, but also the intervening space itself as territory. If the Emergent wanted to interact with the Cardassian Union and could simply salaam through free space away from the sovereign "bubbles" enclosing the Federation systems there would be no problem. However the Federation and other interstellar nations apparently do believe that the open space between their various systems to be theirs.

The Federation has a hard border with the Cardassians, the same situation with the Klingons, although from TWOK there is at least one neutral zone bubble or area along that border. Between the Federation and the Romulans there is a treaty buffer strip instead of a hard border. I think much of the Federation simply opens into a frontier beyond which the Federation just hasn't ventured yet.

After the end of the Dominion war I have some doubt if the Cardassian Union even still exists in any coherent form. The same could be said of the Romulan Star Empire following the destruction of Romulus in the last movie. In both cases the majority of the planets would still be present, but the political states would have dissolved.

.

 

[Lord Garth]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Between what happened to Romulus and Cardassia, I'd think towards the end of the 24th Century and into the 25th, there would be a real movement to decentralize all these powers so they don't have to depend so much on any one world.

They'd also begin to reconsider hard borders, things that led to the creation of the Maquis, and that would play into requiring peace and cooperation between the four powers.

If the Prime Universe were continuing and moving forward, that's something I would've liked to have seen.

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Now here's something that would make things murky:

How does the Federation draw its borders? What if there's a planet with 21st/22nd Century technology that achieves warp drive but doesn't want to join the Federation? They don't even want diplomatic relations with them. But, they're interested in opening up a dialogue with the Cardassians? Except for one thing, this emergent world is surrounded by several other Federation planets?

Suppose the Federation allows the Cardassians travel to this world, but at a later point the Federation and the Cardassians break off diplomatic relations because of a dispute over the Cardassians building up weapons? From this point on, Cardassian ships are not allowed into the Federation space which means they can no longer have passage to the emergent world. At this point, the Cardassians and the emergent world would say the Federation has no right to cut them off from each other, the Federation would demand that the Cardassians stop the weapons build up, the Cardassians would refuse but request the Federation give up something, the Federation refuses, and then -- just like that -- an instant border war.

By 2367, a cessation of hostilities is reached with a treaty, then the Federation and Cardassians spend the next three years hammering out whose land goes to who.

This is how the Dominion war started. With Cardassia being your prewarp civilization (the Cardassian Fleet was mostly crippled by the Klingons) and the Dominion was one with the military buildup. Of course by the time the Federation cut them off, the Dominion already had a huge military presence in Cardassian space. So it was no small border war.

 

[TedShatner10]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The UFP is seen as a threat by other alien imperiums and nations because it's a relatively competent and much more militarily intimidating version of the United Nations in space. Very marshal and xenophobic people like the Cardassians and Romulans would be paranoid about a benign but dangerous brotherhood, like schoolyard bullies who fear fathers ganging up on them.

 

[StarryEyed]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

How does the Federation draw its borders?

The Federation lays claim to, not just the star systems of it's members and protectorates, but also the intervening space itself as territory. If the Emergent wanted to interact with the Cardassian Union and could simply salaam through free space away from the sovereign "bubbles" enclosing the Federation systems there would be no problem. However the Federation and other interstellar nations apparently do believe that the open space between their various systems to be theirs.

This is one of the silly things about Star Trek. It would be like the U.S. claiming the area of the Pacific Ocean laying between Hawaii and the west coast.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

This is one of the silly things about Star Trek. It would be like the U.S. claiming the area of the Pacific Ocean laying between Hawaii and the west coast.

Not really. It's similar to the concept of archipelagic waters that exists in today's law of the sea. All waters inside the outermost islands of an archipelago state are considered the sovereign territory of that state. And the situation of an archipelago state (scattered small points of land divided by stretches of water) is much more similar to what we have in Star Trek than your example. Of course, there's probably a minimal distance that has to exist between two claimed systems in order to also claim the entire space between them.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Actually, it is silly.

Space is unimaginably vast. The star systems' volume is minuscule by comparison.

Even if a power were to claim the space that stretches between its inhabited systems, it wouldn't be able to enforce this claim - not without millions of ships dedicated to this.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Space is unimaginably vast. The star systems' volume is minuscule by comparison.

Not really minuscule, at it's fullest extent, Earth's solar system's Oort cloud is about two light years across. So it would not be unreasonable if the legal description of the sovereignty "bubbles" of each system was one light year in diameter. If you had multiple Federation members in a stellar cluster the area of the sovereignty might have to be smaller.

 

[Vanyel]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Space is unimaginably vast. The star systems' volume is minuscule by comparison.

Not really minuscule, at it's fullest extent, Earth's solar system's Oort cloud is about two light years across. So it would not be unreasonable if the legal description of the sovereignty "bubbles" of each system was one light year in diameter. If you had multiple Federation members in a stellar cluster the area of the sovereignty might have to be smaller.

The Milky Way Galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. 2 light years is minuscule. The Solar System is only about .00002% of that. Seems minuscule.

Someone please check my math, I only learned it long enough to pass my tests and get out of taking math in college. Now I can only balance my bank account.

 

[neozeks]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

Actually, it is silly.

Space is unimaginably vast. The star systems' volume is minuscule by comparison.

Even if a power were to claim the space that stretches between its inhabited systems, it wouldn't be able to enforce this claim - not without millions of ships dedicated to this.

Given that spaceships' long-range sensors have a range measured in lightyears, facilities like the Argus array in dozens of lightyears and the probable use of automated sensor probes, I don't really see how it would be a problem.

The Milky Way Galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. 2 light years is minuscule. The Solar System is only about .00002% of that. Seems minuscule.

In that sense it is miniscule. But we're talking about distances between stars. And 1 ly is practically a quarter way to our nearest star, Alpha Centaury. Though I don't see why the sovereignty 'bubble' has to be limited by physical things like the Oort cloud. Today, the limit of territorial waters is 12 nautical miles from the shore IIRC, and that's just because the world's nations managed to agree to that number (and even in this case some countries proclaim a different boundary).

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

The Milky Way Galaxy is ~100,000 light years across. 2 light years is minuscule. The Solar System is only about .00002% of that. Seems minuscule.

There are a total of 115 individual stars in 81 star systems within 20 light years from the Earth. If each of those star systems claimed a 2 light year bubble that would be 334 cubic ly's out of 33,510 cubic ly's, or 1.15 percent inside the bubbles.

Today, the limit of territorial waters is 12 nautical miles from the shore IIRC, and that's just because the world's nations managed to agree to that number (and even in this case some countries proclaim a different boundary).

The twelve mile territorial limit comes from the maximum range of a heavy shore cannon of the time, the philosophy being if you can't control something it isn't yours. Many nations also claim a two hundred mile exclusive maritime resource zone.

Russia recently began claiming that everything from their northern coast to the north pole is their exclusive territory. America, Canada, Denmark and Norway all think this is a real interesting idea.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Re: Why are so many of the UFP's powerful neighbors hostile towards th

I think the Klingons allied with the Federation because it worked out in their favor, economically, militarily, and civilly.

One of the agreements was the right to unrestricted travel through Federation space and vice versa, so trade opportunities probably increased for them.

And militarily, they had to worry less about the Romulans. They got to rebuild their fleet, their economy and other things.

By the 24th century it appeared to be something of a utopia for the both of them, more so for the Federation.

I remember seeing a little controversy about how the Federation instigated the Dominion conflict by openly exploring the Gamma Quadrant without really making sure they weren't stepping into other cultures territories.

And Dax's statement about how they wouldn't be stopped.

Which agrees with Garth-the Federation expanding so largely in just a few hundred years most likely gave the other powers the wrong idea.

But how about plain old jealousy?