Wht Spock Can't Turn His Emotions Off

[Malaika]

it seems like tos Spock was more the stereotype of what people (in the fictional reality) think the vulcans are and how vulcans want to pretend to be, but when you look at the franchise as a whole nuSpock's portrayal does fit with the canon idea of the vulcans, rather than the fanon one, more.

honestly, also, I think it was easier for tos Spock to 'look' as the controlled one at times (which was itself just appearance for him too) when he didn't have to face the challenges nuSpock faces (and even tos Spock was emotional beyond his facade)
really, it's easy to show vulcans being in control when there is nothing really awakening that part of them that actually has strong emotions.
I also think that nutrek is less stuck about characters having definite roles at any cost. In the old thing, Kirk and McCoy were the human and emotional ones so in some way that made it even easier for Spock to pretend to be the controlled logical vulcan of the situation because he compared to them. In the reboot his purpose isn't being just the alien sidekick and this means that we get to see him beyond what the other characters might see of him. He's more a protagonist with Kirk.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Spock's story is his battle with his human half and control of his emotions. You can't depict that without having him show emotion. And telling that story in two 2hr movies instead of a 79-episode series and six movies necessitates that more be shown in a shorter time.

 

[fireproof78]

While I agree Spock has and expresses feeling from time to time in Tos but does anyone else find him to be far too emotional in new Trek? I know he lost his mother and his planet but im talking even before that.

To be honest, all the other Treks have had problems with writing Vulcans in that we almost always have to see them in emotionally volatile states. TNG had Sarek lose control of his emotions and influencing everyone telepathically to turn violent. DS9 had smug Vulcan baseball players and an emotionally disturbed Vulcan murdering people for smiling. Nearly every Tuvok centred episode of Voyager involved him losing control of his emotions, and the episode they did centred on Vorik was the same. And Enterprise had until its fourth season Vulcans who had strayed from the teachings of Surak and had turned militant under what was revealed to be Romulan influence. And T'Pol's character arc in the third season involved her doing drugs which stripped her of her ability to repress emotions.

So yes, while it is disappointing that the Abrams movies are showing a more emotional side to Spock, it's nothing every other series after TOS hasn't done. Even TOS showed Spock's emotions getting out at times, though it did actually seem to be a minority of the time there anyway.

I'm curious as to why it is disappointing for Spock to show emotions, when the idea is that he is younger, and less experienced when it comes to dealing with both emotions and humans? I just took it as part of both being younger and less experienced as well as the fact that he has dealt with two crises that Prime Spock never had to deal with-loss of his mother and the loss of Vulcan.

As you said, it is nothing that the series has not done, but now they are taking him through a much different circumstances and mental strain that has put on him is fascinating to me.

I agree that Star Trek often struggles with writing Vulcans, but I disagree with Tuvok, to a degree. There are several episodes where his emotional control and stability are a strength for him, and his logic is an asset. I can't remember the episode name, but there is one where an alien lady falls for him but he cannot reciprocate and cannot explain why to her.

As for the Vulcan who became a murderer, the whole point of the episode was that the war was taking its toll on everyone including the Vulcans, and that psychological trauma of war can affect people in different ways.

As for the OP, Spock could never turn his emotions off, but get them under tight, logical, control, The new Spock is still learning that control, only to be exposed to stressor after stressor that pushes him to his limit.

Even with all the other series precedent, the films themselves set up that Vulcans feel and that those emotions need to be controlled:

Sarek: "Emotions run deep within our race. In many ways more deeply than in humans. Logic offers a serenity humans seldom experience. The control of feelings so that they do not control you."

That is from an article taking on the Psychology of Spock. It's a good read that deals with Spock's psychology. At least, I find it interesting, as it layers all the different bits and pieces from the films to present a coherent picture.

 

[BillJ]

Spock's story is his battle with his human half and control of his emotions. You can't depict that without having him show emotion. And telling that story in two 2hr movies instead of a 79-episode series and six movies necessitates that more be shown in a shorter time.

+1

 

[Malaika]

Spock's story is his battle with his human half and control of his emotions. You can't depict that without having him show emotion. And telling that story in two 2hr movies instead of a 79-episode series and six movies necessitates that more be shown in a shorter time.

good point.
Some believe that the reboot is consistent with tos movie-era Spock and, well, the writers themselves (I think it was Orci?) said that they accelerated Spock's emotional development giving us reasons why that happened, which is one of the main differences between the two realities.
One could say that maybe both Spocks were meant to get to a point, eventually, where they embraced their feelings more just this Spock didn't have to grow old to archive that because he has his own life experiences that are different from tos spock and made it possible for him to get there sooner.

The scene between him and Sarek (when Sarek said he loved Amanda) does alone create one huge difference between the two Spocks, IMO. I don't think young tosSpock ever had any vulcan telling him that, basically, it's ok to have feelings or that those aren't just a weakness coming from his human side only. Imagine how that, alone, changed him and what he thought he needed to be in order to get accepted as a vulcan.
In tos, he didn't speak with his father for many years after he joined startfleet. Later in the movies, Sybok's projection of how Spock thought that his father acted when he was born is also a hint of his insecurities, even late at life, and his doubts about his vulcan father being capable of loving and accepting him.

It sucks that Amanda had to die for Spock and Sarek to have a better and more honest relationship (or at least they have more chances now) and I'm not saying that killing Amanda was the only possible way they could archive that but it makes me think that the writers didn't kill her just for shock value.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm curious as to why it is disappointing for Spock to show emotions, when the idea is that he is younger, and less experienced when it comes to dealing with both emotions and humans?

The repressed emotions are what I find interesting about Vulcans in general and Spock in particular. The fact that their defining trait has been ignored by everything since TOS is something of a major disappointment.

I agree that Star Trek often struggles with writing Vulcans, but I disagree with Tuvok, to a degree. There are several episodes where his emotional control and stability are a strength for him, and his logic is an asset. I can't remember the episode name, but there is one where an alien lady falls for him but he cannot reciprocate and cannot explain why to her.

Well, there are still an alarming amount of "Tuvok goes crazy this week" episodes. Just skimming over an episode list and not taking int account things like context or anything, we got Cathexis, Meld, Riddles, Repression, Body and Soul, Workforce, Endgame.

Hmm, maybe that isn't as much as I had thought, and most actually come from the final season, suggesting they just didn't know what to do with the character that year.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So yes, while it is disappointing that the Abrams movies are showing a more emotional side to Spock, it's nothing every other series after TOS hasn't done. Even TOS showed Spock's emotions getting out at times, though it did actually seem to be a minority of the time there anyway.

But when Spock was front and center in an episode it was usually about his emotional control being challenged or "logic is better" philosophy being proven wrong. So it's central to Spock's role in the series. The rest of the time he's Mr. Exposition and the occasional comic foil.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm curious as to why it is disappointing for Spock to show emotions, when the idea is that he is younger, and less experienced when it comes to dealing with both emotions and humans?

The repressed emotions are what I find interesting about Vulcans in general and Spock in particular. The fact that their defining trait has been ignored by everything since TOS is something of a major disappointment.

Well, I can appreciate that stance, partially due to the fact that Spock's logical approach was something I admired and strove for when I was younger and incredibly emotional.

However, as others have pointed out, part of Spock's is his balancing of the two sides of himself. I think Abrams does an interesting job on it, and takes Spock in new directions, especially given the stressors put on him.

Obviously, YMMV

I agree that Star Trek often struggles with writing Vulcans, but I disagree with Tuvok, to a degree. There are several episodes where his emotional control and stability are a strength for him, and his logic is an asset. I can't remember the episode name, but there is one where an alien lady falls for him but he cannot reciprocate and cannot explain why to her.

Well, there are still an alarming amount of "Tuvok goes crazy this week" episodes. Just skimming over an episode list and not taking int account things like context or anything, we got Cathexis, Meld, Riddles, Repression, Body and Soul, Workforce, Endgame.

Hmm, maybe that isn't as much as I had thought, and most actually come from the final season, suggesting they just didn't know what to do with the character that year.

That's true of many last seasons (looking at you TNG...Sub Ros *shudders*).

I think Vulcans are difficult to write and even more so to act. I think that nuTrek attempted to show us an idealized Vulcan in Sarek, and where Spock could attain to, just like we see the ideal Starfleet officer in Pike, and what Kirk could be.

That's why I find Abrams take on Spock so interesting. He is in the process of becoming the Spock we knew that is interesting to me.

 

[The Wormhole]

So yes, while it is disappointing that the Abrams movies are showing a more emotional side to Spock, it's nothing every other series after TOS hasn't done. Even TOS showed Spock's emotions getting out at times, though it did actually seem to be a minority of the time there anyway.

But when Spock was front and center in an episode it was usually about his emotional control being challenged or "logic is better" philosophy being proven wrong. So it's central to Spock's role in the series. The rest of the time he's Mr. Exposition and the occasional comic foil.

I suppose, but as second lead on the show, Spock did have a decent percentage of screen time, and as a result we got to see normal Spock and become familiar with him repressing his emotions so that when he did take center stage and have outbursts it felt different from normal. Whereas, with the Abrams movies it just feels like standard fare to see Spock have an emotional outburst. Hell, Spock was the only male character in STID who cried over Kirk's death.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So yes, while it is disappointing that the Abrams movies are showing a more emotional side to Spock, it's nothing every other series after TOS hasn't done. Even TOS showed Spock's emotions getting out at times, though it did actually seem to be a minority of the time there anyway.

But when Spock was front and center in an episode it was usually about his emotional control being challenged or "logic is better" philosophy being proven wrong. So it's central to Spock's role in the series. The rest of the time he's Mr. Exposition and the occasional comic foil.

I suppose, but as second lead on the show, Spock did have a decent percentage of screen time, and as a result we got to see normal Spock and become familiar with him repressing his emotions so that when he did take center stage and have outbursts it felt different from normal. Whereas, with the Abrams movies it just feels like standard fare to see Spock have an emotional outburst. Hell, Spock was the only male character in STID who cried over Kirk's death.

They talked a lot about Spock suppressing his emotions, but i don't think we see it lot. Usually its just and excuse for McCoy to yell at him because he's not reacting to situation X in a certain way. Plus Nimoy plays Spock with a lot of subtle emotions. The lift of an eyebrow. The cock of a head. Or the way he delivers a line. Its not about suppression, but letting some emotion slip out. I will say Quinto hasn't quite mastered this yet.

Movies, are of course different than TV shows. They have a much shorter to time to develop the character. We don't see these character one a week for most of a year.

 

[Starborn Dragon]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

I don't see it that way at all.

Spock's realization in TMP was that trying to purge his emotions was a mistake. It wasn't a mistake because Spock needed to compromise or conform with humans. Rather, it was a mistake because Spock is half-human; Spock's mother was human. The mistake was to try to suppress and deny part of who he really is.

Moreover, after his mind-meld with V'ger, Spock found meaning in his feelings. Not only did he realize that having feelings was a part of who he is, he realized that having feelings enriched his life.

 

[Malaika]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

But Spock is not emotionless by nature, so in order to be what you think he should be he'd essentially have to kill a part of himself. Such 'goals' you say he set for himself wouldn't be an example of him having agency and being a free person, but rather an example of him being on denial (which is not healthy) by denying himself the chance to be himself just to fit in (irony) what he believes is expected from a 'proper vulcan'. Which doesn't even take into account the fact that even his opinion of the vulcans might have been wrong and widely influenced by stereotypes (about the vulcans. about the humans) they had pushed on him since he was a kid (e.g., Sarek, the bullies, and anyone who wrongly made him think that only his human side had feelings)

Also, like others mentioned, Spock's mother is human and it's canon that he loves her.
He might want to have Sarek's respect too but I think it would be weird for him to want to be only vulcan and essentially pick a side between his own parents choosing Sarek over Amanda, especially when canon makes a point to essentially imply he always had a better relationship with Amanda and she's the one who had always accepted him more.
That's the same bigotry of expecting a mixed child to choose between his parents and their culture.
If anything, Spock should be defensive about his human side too (and nuSpock is) and take offense when people insult that because they are basically insulting his mother whom he loves. (and after her death in this reality, I think he'd want to honor his mother even more than before because now his human side is everything he has left of her)

His 'alieness' to respect would still be the fact that while he has emotions, 90% of the time he might still not show them the same exact way the humans around him do. (do not mistake his choice to not feel as a reflection of not caring)
If we want to talk about how even that is 'human' and relatable that's another matter but yes, from that perspective Vulcans are more or less an allegory about humans and that is not necessarily a flaw in the writing.

 

[Dales]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

I get your point but remember you are describing TOS Spock who will later go on to regret embracing simply only logic by star trek 2009 and he tells he younger self Nu Spock to do what feels right instead of embracing only pure logic.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

Vulcans have never been emotionless robots. The whole point is that their emotions are so intense that they have to keep them under tight control at all times. And the best actors--Nimoy, Mark Lenard, etc.-- let you see the volcanic emotions churning under the stern, stoic, reserved facade.

And the very fact that Kolinahr exists as a goal to aspire to, attainable only to the most advanced Vulcan adepts, suggests that the average Vulcan has hardly purged all emotions.

The Spock we saw on the original series had not turned off his emotions, Sarek had not turned off his emotions, T'Pring had not turned off her emotions, Tuvok and T'Pol had not turned off their emotions.

As far as I know, we've never actually met a Vulcan who completed Kolinhar and completed purged their emotions. (Except maybe the elderly T'Pau?)

In short, Vulcans have emotions. They're just better at controlling them than other species, and some Vulcans have better control than others. (Saavik is obviously more emotional than the average Vulcan.)

The thing is, the Vulcans are not meant to be role models for humanity. They represent one extreme, but even Spock comes to realize that logic alone is not enough.

 

[Nerys Myk]

T'Pring had not turned off his emotions,

Is there something about T'Pring that you're planning to spring on us in a future novel, Greg?



ETA: The edit fu is quick.

 

[Greg Cox]

IT'Pring had not turned off his emotions,

Is there something about T'Pring that you're planning to spring on us in a future novel, Greg?

Damn you're fast. You got that in before I could even fix that typo!

 

[Greg Cox]

It's disappointing to me because Spock giving in to his emotions is compromise so that he may fit in better with the humans around him, and an abandonment of the goals he set for himself. That goal was to embrace pure logic and completely submerge his emotions.

It is also a reflection of human centricism, that we must all be human.

I get your point but remember you are describing TOS Spock who will later go on to regret embracing simply only logic by star trek 2009 and he tells he younger self Nu Spock to do what feels right instead of embracing only pure logic.

Heck, the TOS Spock had turned away from pure logic by the end of the first movie; that was the whole point of his arc in that film--which came straight from Roddenberry himself.

And later, of course, he would tell Valeris that logic was only the beginning of wisdom . ...

 

[Cyke101]

One of my favorite scenes in all of Trek is the Spock/Sarek exchange in TVH. Both of them are trying their best to hide their emotions, but it's pretty darn clear that there's a lot of emotion bubbling under that they're both trying to navigate, Sarek in particular. And it's also clear that he's pretty proud of his son and glad to have him back in the world of the living.

 

[Greg Cox]

One of my favorite scenes in all of Trek is the Spock/Sarek exchange in TVH. Both of them are trying their best to hide their emotions, but it's pretty darn clear that there's a lot of emotion bubbling under that they're both trying to navigate, Sarek in particular. And it's also clear that he's pretty proud of his son and glad to have him back in the world of the living.

I love that scene, too. Particularly the way Lenard manages to get that across without compromising his character. Sarek is never going to be a warm, touchy-feely guy who is comfortable expressing his emotions, but, within his limitations, he and Spock have a very touching moment there, where Sarek is as accepting of Spock's half-human nature as he can be.

"Tell my mother I feel fine."

Sarek (uncomfortable, but not critical): "Yes."