Who would win in a war?

[USS KG5]

Fire said:
I would imagine that in a Federation/Romulan war the Federation would deploy sensors super tuned to detect quantum singularities and tetryon emissions and would no doubt deploy an upgraded anti proton beam.

Well generally in warfare a technical advantage does not last long - measure, counter-measure, new measure and so on.

The only real factor in wnning a "total " war - which is what is being described here, is economic strength and ability. Even though the Klingons and Romulans would probably initially have an advantage due to their probably being the attacker and a more militaristic society you would be left with 1942 pretty quickly.

The Fed fleet would have to hold the line until the Federation's huge economy started kicking out ships faster than the Romulans or Klingons could, and then they would turn the tide and fight them all the way back.

I don't think morals would have much to do with it - even in TNG Picard did not flinch at blowing a ship up if he had no choice - in a war the choice is always simpler and the Feds would not be nearly as cuddly.

 

[Rihannsu]

Rihannsu, Feds, Rihannsu - not that I'm biased or anything
Rihannsu - masters of stealth and great risk managers.
Feds beat Klingons because Klingons will keep fighting long past the point when they should strategically retreat and regroup.

 

[Walter Sochack]

The Klingons would beat the Federation because they were beating the Federation in Yesterday's Enterprise. In addition, the Federation fought the Cardassians for twenty years and ended up making a peace treaty that the Cardies flaunted at will. But when the Klingons fought the Cardassians, within a matter of days they had smashed them back to their core worlds and forced the evacuation of the Cardassian government. And that was after the Cardassians were warned they were coming.

Cloaking technology gives them far too many advantages. If your taskforce finds an enemy group, you only decloak and fight if you have the superior force. If the enemy is superior, you rally until you have enough ships and armaments so you will always have the superior force. Your ships get the first strike and are prepared for combat while the enemy crews are still scrambling. And if by some miracle Starfleet turns the tide, the Klingons can simply disappear and rally for another fight (and don't give me any of this macho honor crap. We've seen Klingons use cloaking technology to avoid a direct fight with a stronger enemy frequently. There's no honor in throwing the resources of your House or Empire away).

Klingon recon would get more information on Starfleet operations, while Starfleet scouts would get picked off by cloaked Klingon anti-recon pickets while they're peering around for ships they can't see. Klingon supply lines would be invisible, while Starfleet supply lines would be vulnerable to stealth attacks. And as for Starfleet implementing their own cloaking technology, that didn't happen in the Dominion War even after the occupation of Betazed, the strike on SFHQ and Romulan involvement in the war.

As for the Romulans, I've got my doubts about them. After each major engagement with humanity their solution was to hide behind the border for fifty or a hundred years and redesign their entire fleet and the technologies they use. That doesn't give me much confidence in their ability to wage a war.

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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Walter Sochack said:
In addition, the Federation fought the Cardassians for twenty years and ended up making a peace treaty that the Cardies flaunted at will. But when the Klingons fought the Cardassians, within a matter of days they had smashed them back to their core worlds and forced the evacuation of the Cardassian government. And that was after the Cardassians were warned they were coming.

To be fair the Fed war with the Cardassians was more like a series of skirmishers rather than an all out war, there were probably just the odd battle here and there between a handful of ships whereas the Klingons committed over a third of their entire fleet in the attack on Cardassia and the Cardassians were in such a state of civil war at the time of the attack that a large proportion of their fleet was likely spread out across Cardassian space trying to keep the peace.

 

[Walter Sochack]

Fire said:
To be fair the Fed war with the Cardassians was more like a series of skirmishers rather than an all out war, there were probably just the odd battle here and there between a handful of ships

From what I remember it was bigger than a few skirmishes - take the Setlik III massacre. The Cardassians were able to cross the border and assault Federation colonies and military installations; that's more than enough to justify serious attention by Starfleet. If the Federation had the ability to decisively take out Cardassian shipyards and installations, which would force them to the negotiating table and end the twenty-year conflict, they would have done it.

and the Cardassians were in such a state of civil war at the time of the attack that a large proportion of their fleet was likely spread out across Cardassian space trying to keep the peace.

Actually I'd say that would have the opposite effect. The coup would have drawn Cardassian fleets back into home territory, rather than overstretching them in distant occupations and growling matches with the various neighboring species. That means less ships out in the middle of nowhere and more ships within Cardassian space.

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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED

 

[tachibana]

Federation over Romulans and Klingons. Romulans over Klingons b/c Romulans seem to be more organized where as the Klingons would probably waste too much time fighting amongst each other for some sort of honor and leadership.

Kapla b*tches

 

[USS KG5]

Walter Sochack said:
From what I remember it was bigger than a few skirmishes - take the Setlik III massacre. The Cardassians were able to cross the border and assault Federation colonies and military installations; that's more than enough to justify serious attention by Starfleet. If the Federation had the ability to decisively take out Cardassian shipyards and installations, which would force them to the negotiating table and end the twenty-year conflict, they would have done it.

Well they probably did? The Cardies were forced to the table by something, and it seems likely that strictly limiting the conflict, containing the Cardassians and outlasting their ability to fight it was coupled with some kind of small-scale Fed offensive that proved the tipping point.

 

[Galactic Alignment]

I've always thought that the Federation would have the advantage of being much larger geographically than the two empires, with more resources and more (heterogeneous) manpower and support from the many various members species of the UFP. I mean, how many species do we know of within the two empires? Romulans have two, Klingons one (or two, if you count Targs).

 

[The Mule]

also, as evidence has shown, Federation Starships tend to kick lots of ass. starships, devoting a significant portion of her resources and equipment to scientific and diplomatic functions, have been routinely (exceptions still apply, Borg, Jem Hadar) shown to take out two similarly sized enemy vessels that are pure warships, with minimal resources devoted to non-militaristic endeavours.

 

[EnsignRicky]

I would think that the Federation would Beat the Klingons, but the Romulans would defeat them both. The federation is a major force, but the Romulans are like China; A highly trained militaristic state that you just don't want to mess with too much. The Klingons I've always seen as dangerously powerful, yet rather diorganized and a little clumsey. However, if all technology were removed from the equation and they were all thrown into a pit together, hands down, the Klingons would smash the comparatively frail Federation and Romulan races to pulp. Just don't ask them to use a calculator.

 

[Walter Sochack]

USS KG5 said:
Well they probably did? The Cardies were forced to the table by something, and it seems likely that strictly limiting the conflict, containing the Cardassians and outlasting their ability to fight it was coupled with some kind of small-scale Fed offensive that proved the tipping point.

We can't assume that the Cardassians were forced to concede by an unseen Federation offensive any more than we can assume that the Federation was forced to concede by the Setlik III massacre. We just don't see the conflict's resolution. But the Cardassians would bend and flaunt later treaties and plan fresh offensives against the Federation; that's not the behavior of someone who was forced to make concessions in the face of military strength.

---------------------------------
"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED

 

[USS KG5]

Walter Sochack said:
We can't assume that the Cardassians were forced to concede by an unseen Federation offensive any more than we can assume that the Federation was forced to concede by the Setlik III massacre.

No, we can't - nor can we assume the opposite which is what was claimed in the post I was replying to.

We just don't see the conflict's resolution. But the Cardassians would bend and flaunt later treaties and plan fresh offensives against the Federation; that's not the behavior of someone who was forced to make concessions in the face of military strength.

Thats funny because I seem to remember the Germans were defeated in WW1 by overwhelming military strength and after a change of government flouted a few treaties and launched a massive war that killed millions, a lot like the Cardies.

Not to mention Saddam Hussein happily kept screwing with the USA long after his military was wiped out in the first Gulf War, to the point he gave them the slimmest of justifications for an invasion that resulted in his death.

The Federation is portrayed on screen as militarily far more powerful than the Cardassians, apart from anything else their warships seem to go down extremely easily to the Feds best.

A limited conflict carefully balanced against a major power by a smaller one does not necessarily mean an instant total war. The Cardassians could deliberately have provided only enough of a threat to justify minimum Fed resources to contain them and avoided escalating the conflict to the point that the Feds would re-assign ships and send a Dominion War style fleet to take names and kick booty.

As I said in a post wars are usually started and ended by economic concerns, even supposed "holy" wars and tribal wars in Africa usually have some kind of resource that some greedy bastard at the heart of it all wants to exploit.

Hell, the whole of our "war on terror" is about stopping the formation of a fabulously wealthy hostile radical Islamic superpower in the Middle East - which I think all can agree would be bad for western interests.

 

[Tralis]

Romulan Star Empire
United Federation of Planets
Klingon Empire

The Federation probably has the largest fleet by a large margin, but its scattered around everywhere exploring and doing errands. A suprise attack could be devastating if there was no warning. The Romulans could almost certainly exploit this to its full potential, casuing havok before the UFP could organize for war. The Klingons would probably be far too agressive and like the Japanese navy in WWII be obssessed with a final honorable decisive battle that the other side wouldn't give.

 

[EnsignRicky]

It's also kinda sad to note that the Borg, who in thier first two appearences, were arguably the most terrifying and dangerous aliens ever concieved in all of science fiction, let alone Star Trek, would in the hands of later writers, become a laughing joke to even consider as a serious contender for this thread.

 

[Tralis]

^ Depressingly true.

 

[Walter Sochack]

USS KG5 said:
Thats funny because I seem to remember the Germans were defeated in WW1 by overwhelming military strength and after a change of government flouted a few treaties and launched a massive war that killed millions, a lot like the Cardies.

Not to mention Saddam Hussein happily kept screwing with the USA long after his military was wiped out in the first Gulf War

These are two very different examples, and I'm not sure how either of them connect to the Cardassians. They didn't require Germany's lengthy rebuilding, industrial transformation and huge political and social shifts - they simply resumed lobbing great big gooey spitballs over the border with no indication they were ever knocked on their arses. And Saddam Hussein didn't have a fleet of battleships hiding in a fogbank ready to invade Texas back in '94, the way the Cardassians did in Chain of Command They retained the ability and willingness to use military might beyond their borders. It's simply a different situation that doesn't work in a comparison.

All we have is what's onscreen. And that is that the Cardassians were able to cross the border and hit Federation colonies and bases. People disagree on this, but I would assume that this situation would force Starfleet to seek a quick end to the conflict if it were within their means, just as they sought to limit Dominion strength by mining the wormhole entrance and hitting Dominion shipyards. There is precedent for Starfleet hitting military targets.

Whether they did or didn't, it seems to have had no effect. Even after the twenty year conflict the Cardassians continued to press and take. They planned advances and aggression. And a single Klingon advance was able to do to the Cardassian Union what Starfleet failed to do in two decades - remove their ability to field an aggressive force, force them to take foreign aid and ultimately ally themselves with a stronger nation to help them rebuild.

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"If there is to be a Brave New World, our generation will have the hardest time living in it."
STAR TREK: RUST RED

 

[Moocey]

The Federation, but only if they let Section 31 loose to do plenty of dirty work.

 

[USS Excelsior]

In addition to cloaking, Starfleet has refractive shielding to be undetectable, which means they can still fire while unseen.

 

[major_kusunagi]

I would say it is the Feddies. And here is the reason why. Freedom. Time and time again free peoples win wars. If you look at the Klingon and Romulan Empires even thier people, as free as Klingons may seem, are not free. Sure the other races are more ruthless but ruthlessness may win battles but not wars. Look at our history as far as ruthless civilizations and see where they are now. I agree with the above post too. The Federation, unlike thier counterparts, can bring in massive military force without worring about a rebellion sprouting on the other side of thier empire. The Klingons and the Romulans do not have that option. Like Sparta and the Helots, these two empires can never bring thier full military power to bear where as the Federation can.

:{)

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Federation

Federation

Klingons

The Romulans were secretive for a reason...hiding weakeness. They've put up a good front (and a good fight), but probably have a smaller population than either the Feds or the Klingons.

The Federation, biggest population of them all. Manpower galore...just a matter of fleet size. Plus the Federation would come up with ideas (strategies, super weapons) the Klingons wouldn't. Yesterday's Enterprise alt-timeline leaves out some...30+ years of Federation growth, and I can't recall what happened to the Romulans in that timeline. IF the Klingons beat them and took over their space, then they'd have a resource advantage.