Who Was Responsible for Benny Russell?

[cwalrus2]

I haven't watched the episodes pertaining to this topic in a while, but I was just wondering if it ever was established whether Sisko's Benny Russell experience was sent to him by the Prophets or the Pah-Wraiths. I know in Far Beyond the Stars" it ends very ambigiously with Sisko saying that there's no telling whether his reality was the dream or Benny's. It sort of gives the impression that the vision was possibly sent to him by the Prophets as sort of an encouragement to keep "fighting the good fight" after Sisko was discouraged towards the beginning of the episode by the number of casualties the war was claiming.

Then in "Shadows and Symbols" in season 7, I think Sarah tells Sisko that the Benny Russell vision was a "false vision" from the Pah-Wraiths. So, it only begs the question whether or not the Pah-Wraiths were the ones who created Benny Russell in the first place or if the Prophets created him and the the Pah-Wraiths used it to distract Sisko? Of course, the answer could be that Benny Russell is the one that is real and Sisko is the living embodiment of his dream like the end of FBtS suggests. I know that one of the options they were toying with was ending DS9 with Benny Russell standing outside the Paramount lot with a script for "Deep Space Nine," but I don't think that option was well-liked by the executives at Paramount nor would it have been well-received by the fans.

 

[CommanderJMic]

Benny Russell couldn't have been real, unless all the characters in TOS, TNG, and VOY were also created by him (see Emissary, Birthright, Caretaker, et al.)

I choose to believe the Benny Russell persona was created by the Prophets for purposes of enlightenment. The "Shadows and Symbols" instance was a perversion of that persona by the Pah-wraiths.

 

[Mr. Fergy]

I think Benny Russell is fake, but Ira Steven-Behr stated that he wanted DS9 and Sisko to end in a dream.

 

[erastus25]

I think Benny Russell is fake, but Ira Steven-Behr stated that he wanted DS9 and Sisko to end in a dream.

I wish they would have done that. It would have been nuts.

I remember they also considering ending the second Moriarty episode in such a way that the characters would never know whether or not they were on a ship or a holodeck.

 

[Rabittooth]

Benny Russell couldn't have been real, unless all the characters in TOS, TNG, and VOY were also created by him (see Emissary, Birthright, Caretaker, et al.)

I choose to believe the Benny Russell persona was created by the Prophets for purposes of enlightenment. The "Shadows and Symbols" instance was a perversion of that persona by the Pah-wraiths.

I believe this as well. I would have sought out and slain whomever responsible if they had made the entire series a dream of Benny's.

-Rabittooth

 

[Tulaberry whine]

I would have loved the 'it's all a Benny Russell dream' ending to DSN - IMO it could have been both pretty audacious and a poignant ending for DSN. My thinking is, Sisko is now a prophet who doesn't exist in 'linear time' anymore, so who is to say the Benny Russell sitting outside of a studio with his Trek script isn't Sisko, so Trek is the dream that comes true.

Do it right so it can tie back into Far Beyond The Stars in a really powerful way, but keep it vague enough to give fans something to argue about forever.

Ooh - my first post!

 

[Red Ranger]

DSN just Benny Russell's dream? Yikes! Shades of the lost season of Dallas, or the end of Newhart, or the end of St. Elsewhere! I prefer to think that Benny Russell was an ancestor of Sisko's and that they were linked by the Prophets in a kind of two-way version of the racial memory theory. So Benny saw what happens to his descendant, while Sisko saw what happened to his ancestor. To quote Benny, both he and Sisko are "Reeeealllll!" -- RR

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If DS9 had been a dream, then so must have the entire Trek universe, and of course that wouldn't have worked. The Tommy Westphall 'verse doesn't hold, and neither would this.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

I read the cast love FBTS, It never made any sense to me

 

[Red Ranger]

I read the cast love FBTS, It never made any sense to me

That's too bad, Phoenix. For what it's worth, here are a few of my opinons on what it was supposed to be. It is a uniquely American -- in this case, African-American -- perspective. It was an allegory on racism in the US. It's also a take on the old parable of the man who dreamed he was a butterfly. He awakens and wonders if perhaps he's really a butterfly who is dreaming he is a man.

It's open to interpretation. You can choose to believe Benny Russell is fake, a hallucination of Ben Sisko's to sort through how troubled he is about how the war with the Dominion is progressing, as well as an encouragement to keep on fighting. Or you can believe Benny is real and Sisko and his whole universe spring from the imagination of a frustrated 20th century writer.

I choose to think that both Sisko and Russell are real and are linked over the centuries by the Prophets. After all, remember the Prophets don't exist in linear time. For all intents and purposes, they exist in all time periods, so a link between two people separated by centuries probably isn't beyond their capabilities.

Red Ranger

 

[Red Ranger]

If DS9 had been a dream, then so must have the entire Trek universe, and of course that wouldn't have worked. The Tommy Westphall 'verse doesn't hold, and neither would this.

I definitely agree with your opinion, Babaganoosh. While I thought the St. Elsewhere ending was daring, it just didn't make sense to me, either. But hey, at least DSN didn't end like The Sopranos! -- RR

 

[erastus25]

Or you can believe Benny is real and Sisko and his whole universe spring from the imagination of a frustrated 20th century writer.

I choose to think that both Sisko and Russell are real and are linked over the centuries by the Prophets. After all, remember the Prophets don't exist in linear time. For all intents and purposes, they exist in all time periods, so a link between two people separated by centuries probably isn't beyond their capabilities.

Red Ranger

Wow. I never thought of it like that. I like that a lot.

Thanks Ranger!

 

[Red Ranger]

Or you can believe Benny is real and Sisko and his whole universe spring from the imagination of a frustrated 20th century writer.

I choose to think that both Sisko and Russell are real and are linked over the centuries by the Prophets. After all, remember the Prophets don't exist in linear time. For all intents and purposes, they exist in all time periods, so a link between two people separated by centuries probably isn't beyond their capabilities.

Red Ranger

Wow. I never thought of it like that. I like that a lot.

Thanks Ranger!

Erastus25,

Hey, you're welcome. I myself am glad they made it ambiguous, so that the individual viewer can make up his or her own mind what was real and what wasn't. The idea of racial memory going from the future to the past is a concept I first encountered in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, and if you know the novel, you can see how it fit.

Red Ranger

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Or you can believe Benny is real and Sisko and his whole universe spring from the imagination of a frustrated 20th century writer.

I choose to think that both Sisko and Russell are real and are linked over the centuries by the Prophets. After all, remember the Prophets don't exist in linear time. For all intents and purposes, they exist in all time periods, so a link between two people separated by centuries probably isn't beyond their capabilities.

Red Ranger

Wow. I never thought of it like that. I like that a lot.

Thanks Ranger!

Erastus25,

Hey, you're welcome. I myself am glad they made it ambiguous, so that the individual viewer can make up his or her own mind what was real and what wasn't. The idea of racial memory going from the future to the past is a concept I first encountered in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, and if you know the novel, you can see how it fit.

Red Ranger

Thats a really good theory

 

[Red Ranger]

Wow. I never thought of it like that. I like that a lot.

Thanks Ranger!

Erastus25,

Hey, you're welcome. I myself am glad they made it ambiguous, so that the individual viewer can make up his or her own mind what was real and what wasn't. The idea of racial memory going from the future to the past is a concept I first encountered in Arthur C. Clarke's Childhood's End, and if you know the novel, you can see how it fit.

Red Ranger

Thats a really good theory

Phoenix:

Well, it did come from Arthur C. Clarke, one of the best hard sf writers ever. It's an example of a theory extrapolated further out. Hey, if we can have time travel and wormhole inhabitants posing as humans to create the Emissary, it's not that much of a stretch to believe that they can link the minds of people together, esp. if they may be related.

BTW, I'm sure some of you will say, "Well, Benny can't be real because he saw all the DSN characters as different people in his life." Tish-tosh, I say! Maybe Sisko simply saw the people in Benny's life as people he knew to better be able to identify with Benny, so he'd have familiar touchstones. And maybe Benny imagined his characters looking different, although as the audience, we needed to see familiar faces, some in unfamilar roles, to make it more accessible. I do find it interesting that Armin Shimerman's character was one of Benny's staunchest defenders, not something you'd expect Quark to do regarding Sisko!

Red Ranger

 

[shatastrophic]

It was a vision from the prophets. A reminder to him to not have doubts and to stay the course. At the beginning of the episode Sisko was feeling bad about the news of the war and the decisions he had to make. The prophets showed him he is actually lucky having to make those decisions, a few centuries earlier and he wouldn't have the luxury of making many decisions with his life period. At the beginning of the episode Sisko states, "Maybe it's time to step down and let someone else make the big decisions". During the vision Sisko's father/the Preacher stated, "Stay the course brother Benny".

The prophets wanted him to know he had to stay the course so he could complete his tasks as the emissary. Benny was just a vision/reminder from the prophets.

I always thought that the visions of Benny in the asylum in Shadows and Symbols represented the false image from the Pah Wraiths. It was their attempt to keep him from opening the ark and releasing the power of the orb that would eventually expell the Wraiths from the wormhole. Benny being told to paint over his stories and forget about "This Deep Space Nine" was a mental rouse and a last attempt from the Wraiths to prevent Sisko from kicking there asses out. IMO. Great topic though!

 

[crmfghtr]

Wow, that was very well said and eloquent. I agree for I too rather believed that both characters were real in some sense. But that rather sums it up nicely.

I read the cast love FBTS, It never made any sense to me

That's too bad, Phoenix. For what it's worth, here are a few of my opinons on what it was supposed to be. It is a uniquely American -- in this case, African-American -- perspective. It was an allegory on racism in the US. It's also a take on the old parable of the man who dreamed he was a butterfly. He awakens and wonders if perhaps he's really a butterfly who is dreaming he is a man.

It's open to interpretation. You can choose to believe Benny Russell is fake, a hallucination of Ben Sisko's to sort through how troubled he is about how the war with the Dominion is progressing, as well as an encouragement to keep on fighting. Or you can believe Benny is real and Sisko and his whole universe spring from the imagination of a frustrated 20th century writer.

I choose to think that both Sisko and Russell are real and are linked over the centuries by the Prophets. After all, remember the Prophets don't exist in linear time. For all intents and purposes, they exist in all time periods, so a link between two people separated by centuries probably isn't beyond their capabilities.

Red Ranger

 

[Ro_Laren]

That episode always annoyed me. The only thing I like about it is that we get to see all of the crew as humans. Didn't Brooks' say it was his favorite DS9 episode?

 

[Red Ranger]

That episode always annoyed me. The only thing I like about it is that we get to see all of the crew as humans. Didn't Brooks' say it was his favorite DS9 episode?

If so, he has excellent taste. If you think about it, going off on a tangent here, some of the best ST eps are those that are quite unlike the rest of the series offerings, like in TOS, City on the Edge of Forever.

That's how I feel about Far Beyond the Stars and The Visitor, both among the best eps in DSN series history. They both are atypical eps that veer off from the established framework of the series.

Red Ranger