Who was Andrew Kim, going to date Marry and have children with?

[Guy Gardener]

Kes was 9 months old when she met the Voyager crew.

From the episode Before and After where some of it was set in a previously possible future, where Harry is Tom's son-in-law, and Tom's Ocampan halfbreed grandchild is near being front loaded into an accelerated puberty that he's maybe a month or two from appearing to be in his early 20s while still wet from mourning the passing of his grandmother... Surely Voyager's women would be intrigued by a new handsome face with a bright and charming wit joining their lives that they wouldn't want to pin him and make sweet love to his tonsils?

Surely not a Delanney? "I forget, did you fool around with my pa or gramps?"

Great shades of the Graduate!

Although something skeevy to consider... If it's legal some places to marry your first cousin, and legal most places to marry your second cousin... Well, considering how quickly these generations are going to turn over, how bad is it to sleep with your great great great great Grand children compared to sleeping with your great great great great great Grand children? When does it not become wrong?

Why am I thinking of the Star belly Snetches and the Sneetches with no star on that belly of thars?

 

[Lynx]

Maybe Naomi.

 

[Guy Gardener]

you very well know that despite how they mighthave appeared to be the same age around about that time, that that growth spurt i was talking about would doom any relationship he tried to have with that tiny little girl child since he would be maturing emotionally and physically dozens of times faster than she is that by the time she'd capable of being in PG13 hand holding relationship, Andrew would be dead and shot out the front of Voyager in a torpedo casing.

"I forbid you to see that girl!"

"but Daaaa---aaad. Wh--hhy?"

"You can't make out with a 5 year old little girl if you're 6 foot three and have more body hair hair than a Tholian badger because then you're a Pedophile Andrew and i have not raised a pedophile!"

"But DAD! She's 4 years older than me!"

 

[Johnny]

"You can't make out with a 5 year old little girl if you're 6 foot three and have more body hair hair than a Tholian badger because then you're a Pedophile Andrew and i have not raised a pedophile!"

Speech and a half!

 

[spoonunseptium]

Hm. I found that episode slightly disturbing.

Your best friend marrying your daughter, who is like, what, 3 years old?



I was so glad that was an alternate timeline and not the real one...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Hm. I found that episode slightly disturbing.

Your best friend marrying your daughter, who is like, what, 3 years old?

Well, these are Ocampa after all. People called Neelix a pedophile because of his relationship with Kes, but that's bullshit, since Kes was the Ocampa equivalent of an adult (albeit a *young* adult). Same difference here.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, Neelix didn't hold out long enough for the lady to lap his wrinkles twice and again seemingly, because by the end in before and After it was kes who looked like a cradle robber while canoodling with alternate Tom (Anne Bancroft was only 37 when she made the Graduate. Dustin was 30.), or more accurately a truer originaler Tom since the change in Time obvious occurred becaue of the events in the movie First Contact after the Borg got a leg up from the/a Queen 300 years earlier. So we should have been viewing the Adventures of Captain Chakotay and Doctor Motzart, but all those damn time travellers deformed the beautiful present something rotten until the Delta Quadrant became Janeway's playground again.

The doctor what with having no dna, andnot only not being able to get older, but he can impersonate an ocampan life cycle to keep comenserate with his "mate" is more than capable of "dating" and "marrying" several different generations of Kes' decendants, if it had taken Voyagera particularily long time to get home, but then Joey in that play on friends said he was going to use special relativity to bang his lovers great grandchild the next time he got back towards earth. Which puts the hologram in fine company, no?

Although you can tell that neelix had no idea what it meant to be ocampan when he contemplated fatherhood with kes that he would be throughing his life away, sacrificing so much to raise a child he wasn't sure he was ready for or would be good for... When the gestationwas probably 2 months and the child would be a "young adult" itching for thier own quarters and to go out and make a name for themselves inside of seven month after some one pulled it out of Kes' shoulder.

The real problem would be in knowing that he was going to have a child who would be dead in 9 years, and a geriatric doddering old fool in 8. Now that's enough to break anyones heart.

Thing is. When they made caretaker, they didn't realler consider who quickly kes matured, that the last time Neelix saw her some weeks or a month ago when he pissed off the Kazon... She probably looked like a twelve year old human no mattter what was going on inside her mind. Really the swiftnes with which she ages would piss the hell off any serious minded dedicated peophile... Which brings back to the old question, howelse other than beat Kes did the kazon prove that they own her like we would pown a cat or a barker lounger.

 

[Jeri]

I think when they made Caretaker, they were doing this arithmetic regarding the Kes character: 2 + 7 = 9.

Kes was two when they found her, plus hopefully seven seasons, equals 9; i.e., her death. Had she made it to the end, they probably planned a proper demise.

 

[Lynx]

I think when they made Caretaker, they were doing this arithmetic regarding the Kes character: 2 + 7 = 9.

Kes was two when they found her, plus hopefully seven seasons, equals 9; i.e., her death. Had she made it to the end, they probably planned a proper demise.

I'm not sure of that. I find it more likely that they had prolonged her lifespan. There were hints for that in some episodes, most notably "Cold Fire".

I also get the impression that the writers didn't know what they were doing when they created the Ocampa. They succeded in coming up with so many ridiculous ideas for that poor species that they got tangled in it in the long run and simply didn't care even when they must have realized that it didn't work. The lifespan was hardly mentioned after "Cold Fire", it was only brought up here and there, most notably in "Before And After".

And yes, the whole scenario with Kim's and Linnis' son is a bit......weird to say the least.

 

[Jeri]

^ ^ Please note the premise: "...when they made Caretaker." I think what I deduced is plainly likely at that time.

 

[Searider Falcon]

I always thought the same thing, too, Jeri. It might've change down the road, but going into Voyager, I think most people knew that the show would likely be 7 seasons long unless it somehow flopped on an epic scale. I figure that if they'd kept the character for the entire run, she likely would've died in the finale with her final act perhaps being to help Voyager get home once and for all. It was just too convenient that her lifespan and the expectation of the show's were the same.

 

[Lynx]

I don't think that they had any detailed plans at all for the series from the start. If they had had, there wouldn't have been so many contradictions and things who simply didn't work.

They came up with a bunch of characters who they wanted to be somewhat different from the other series and they were actually successful when it came to the background stories of some characters. most notably Chakotay, Neelix, Kes and Torres.

When it came to Kes and the Ocampa, I guess that the silly lifespan (a species living only for nine years could never develope to something more than primates) and the even more silly thing about their offspring (only one child? Come on!) was the result of them trying desperately to come up with something unique, like "Oh, we've never had that before".

When it didn't work (which I do think they realized), it was just, "oh never mind, the viewers won't notice" and the just let everything roll, just as they did with the amount of shuttles and photon torpedoes as well.

As for the lifespan issue, it was seldom mentioned after "Cold Fire" and in that episode, it was hints for a prolonging of Kes's lifespa which probably had happeed if she had stayed.

 

[Jeri]

I don't think that they had any detailed plans at all for the series from the start.

Indeed; "2 + 7 = 9" isn't detailed. It's pretty simple.

 

[Rarewolf]

Multiply ocampan age by 10 would roughly equate to human years.

The thing that bothered me most about Before And After... was Kes' hair. The Future Kes had different hair (and why not - time had past) but then normal Kes kept it (in the present) for the rest of the run.

Unless Kes just saw her future self with it and decided she liked it!

 

[Ezri II]

Kim get married and has an offspring!!! That is scarry.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's like when Homer met that lobster in a fishtank when the Simpsons went out to Dinner... "I'll be seeing you later." or a farmer spending 7 months fattening up a Turkey for christmas dinner...

And Kes was assuredly less than one in Caretaker. I'll find the evidence later because this is so basic it's insane that anyone would be caught off guard by it.

 

[Lynx]

Multiply ocampan age by 10 would roughly equate to human years.

The thing that bothered me most about Before And After... was Kes' hair. The Future Kes had different hair (and why not - time had past) but then normal Kes kept it (in the present) for the rest of the run.

Unless Kes just saw her future self with it and decided she liked it!

The change of hairstyle happened because Jennifer Lien had an allergic reaction to the glue which was used to fit the Ocampa ears to her head.

So they decided to let her have long hair instead because in that case the ears wouldn't be visible and she wouldn't have to wear the Ocampa ears.

It just happened around the time for the filming of "Before And After", therefore it was convenient to let her change her hairstyle there and then. However, it was never explained why the character Kes changed her hairstyle and it has become one of those strange contradictions in the series.

In the episode "Worst Case Scenario" which was filmed at the end of the season, Kes (or more correctly a Kes hologram) has short hair again but if you look closely, she's not wearing the Ocampa ears.

 

[Jeri]

And Kes was assuredly less than one in Caretaker...

Not according to her page at Memory Alpha. She is born in 2369 and leaves the city in 2371.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Thing about those pages is that it's a question of some talented person choosing which conflicting information to hold as gospel above other equally irrelevant throwaway lines.

From season two's Elogium

Shh. Shh. It's going to be all right. Now, tell me, what is happening to you?
KES: Di-Did the Doctor tell you he found something growing on my back?
JANEWAY: Yes, a growth of some kind.
KES: It's-- It's th-the mitral sac. I-It's... It's where my child would grow. I'm going through the elogium, the t-time of change... when, when my body prepares for f-fertilisation.
JANEWAY: Humans go through the same kind of process. It's called puberty.
KES: But I'm too young, much too young. It usually happens between the ages of f-four and five. I-I'm not even two yet.
JANEWAY: Listen to me. All your body's metabolic activity has increased. It's possible your reproductive processes are being accelerated as a result.
KES: I'm not ready.
JANEWAY: We're going to get you through this, Kes. The Doctor will monitor you constantly.

So, she's not even two years old during Voyagers second year in the delta quadrant?

From season 3's Darkling

JANEWAY: Come in.
KES: Hello, Captain.
JANEWAY: Good morning. An all-nighter, Kes?
KES: Er, Captain?
JANEWAY: Putting off an important task until the last minute, then rushing through it. In my Academy days I was the acknowledged master.
KES: Captain, do you have a minute?
JANEWAY: Of course. Let's sit down.
KES: You know I've been spending time with Zahir.
JANEWAY: Yes. He seems like a very interesting young man.
KES: He is. I want to spend more time with him. A lot more time.
JANEWAY: I see.
KES: He wants to explore the Sylleran Rift. His ship travels at high warp. We could rendezvous with Voyager afterwards, before you're too far away.
JANEWAY: That would certainly give you a chance to get to know him better.
KES: It's more than that. Captain, I've lived almost a third of my life now. I've been asking myself if I want to spend the rest of it on Voyager.
JANEWAY: That's certainly a legitimate question.
KES: Everyone here has been so good to me. I don't want you to think I'm ungrateful. I've just been thinking that maybe there's more. I don't know what that means, but I know I'm changing, and I know there are things that I'm not satisfied with. I want complication in my life.
JANEWAY: And you think Zahir might be the way to do that?

So, she''s not even three during voyagers third year in the delta Quadrant?

Meanwhile if according to your link that Before and after happened in 2379, when she was 9 and dying of old age, and she left the city in 2371... because if she was 2 when she left the city, that would make her 10 or 11 when she "died" in Before and after depending when her birthday.

 

[Johnny]

Thing about those pages is that it's a question of some talented person choosing which conflicting information to hold as gospel above other equally irrelevant throwaway lines.

From season two's Elogium

Shh. Shh. It's going to be all right. Now, tell me, what is happening to you?
KES: Di-Did the Doctor tell you he found something growing on my back?
JANEWAY: Yes, a growth of some kind.
KES: It's-- It's th-the mitral sac. I-It's... It's where my child would grow. I'm going through the elogium, the t-time of change... when, when my body prepares for f-fertilisation.
JANEWAY: Humans go through the same kind of process. It's called puberty.
KES: But I'm too young, much too young. It usually happens between the ages of f-four and five. I-I'm not even two yet.
JANEWAY: Listen to me. All your body's metabolic activity has increased. It's possible your reproductive processes are being accelerated as a result.
KES: I'm not ready.
JANEWAY: We're going to get you through this, Kes. The Doctor will monitor you constantly.

So, she's not even two years old during Voyagers second year in the delta quadrant?

From season 3's Darkling

JANEWAY: Come in.
KES: Hello, Captain.
JANEWAY: Good morning. An all-nighter, Kes?
KES: Er, Captain?
JANEWAY: Putting off an important task until the last minute, then rushing through it. In my Academy days I was the acknowledged master.
KES: Captain, do you have a minute?
JANEWAY: Of course. Let's sit down.
KES: You know I've been spending time with Zahir.
JANEWAY: Yes. He seems like a very interesting young man.
KES: He is. I want to spend more time with him. A lot more time.
JANEWAY: I see.
KES: He wants to explore the Sylleran Rift. His ship travels at high warp. We could rendezvous with Voyager afterwards, before you're too far away.
JANEWAY: That would certainly give you a chance to get to know him better.
KES: It's more than that. Captain, I've lived almost a third of my life now. I've been asking myself if I want to spend the rest of it on Voyager.
JANEWAY: That's certainly a legitimate question.
KES: Everyone here has been so good to me. I don't want you to think I'm ungrateful. I've just been thinking that maybe there's more. I don't know what that means, but I know I'm changing, and I know there are things that I'm not satisfied with. I want complication in my life.
JANEWAY: And you think Zahir might be the way to do that?

So, she''s not even three during voyagers third year in the delta Quadrant?

Meanwhile if according to your link that Before and after happened in 2379, when she was 9 and dying of old age, and she left the city in 2371... because if she was 2 when she left the city, that would make her 10 or 11 when she "died" in Before and after depending when her birthday.

Did all Voyager's references to Ocompan age range come from what the Kazon have said? I'm not sure of all the references, but if Voyager haven't seen one grow through to old age, as Kes would technically be the first they encounter, then their reasoning has to be based on something 'non-factual', eg What the Kazon say.

If the Kazon were torturers based on the state of Kes when Neelix et al went to rescue her, maybe they don't survive into old age because of how hard the Kazon work them? Resulting in their life span in the Kazon's eyes being shorter, and Kes' statement to the longer. Hense the 'third of my life' statement...
Possibility?