Who is the Most Moral TNG Character?

[Mojochi]

Data is not moral either. morality implies a choice, Data has no choice but to follow his routines. In fact we can see that when these routines are disabled he can become the most abjectly evil creature you could imagine.

The only instance of what you claim is in Descent when Lore disables his ethical subroutines. However, it was not that circumstance alone which turned Data into the evil creature he became. Lore was also tapping into his emotion chip to feed him only negative emotions, that would slant his perspective, & then also using expertly applied manipulative tactics on him to control him. Basically, by shutting off his ethical subroutines, all Lore did was leave Data with no defense against being manipulated into evil acts. How is that any different than say some Romulans brainwashing Geordi to murder people? Does that alone make Geordi unethical?

 

[Discofan]

The only instance of what you claim is in Descent when Lore disables his ethical subroutines. However, it was not that circumstance alone which turned Data into the evil creature he became. Lore was also tapping into his emotion chip to feed him only negative emotions, that would slant his perspective, & then also using expertly applied manipulative tactics on him to control him. Basically, by shutting off his ethical subroutines, all Lore did was leave Data with no defense against being manipulated into evil acts. How is that any different than say some Romulans brainwashing Geordi to murder people? Does that alone make Geordi unethical?

Alan Turing who practically invented computer science thought that there was a fundamental difference between human intelligence and artificial intelligence and that was the possibility of making a choice and we can see it's true when either Data or the Doctor's ethical subroutines are turned off instantly. Unless he's crazy which doesn't happen very often a human being will always make a conscious choice between good and evil (otherwise passing judgment would be pointless). In order to be tried for a crime, you have to be first found responsible for your actions.

 

[Mojochi]

First of all this is fiction, so what Alan Turing posits is really of no import. Secondly, in essence, turning off a part of Data's mind IS an act that is basically making him crazy, but even then, as I pointed out in my post, it still took more for him to become unethical, manipulation & emotional tampering, which is why I made my comparison to Geordi's brainwashing. Any of us can be made to do unethical things if we are under someone else's control

 

[Discofan]

At this point, the only thing left is to agree to disagree.

 

[Qonundrum]

Why not Q? He helped guide or point out Picard's morality in stories like "Tapestry", "Encounter at Farpoint", and "All Good Things".

And would the Federation have survived the Borg onslaught had it not been for Q pointing out what they were - or else they would have remained clueless over what scooped up their outposts from "The Neutral Zone" to begin with?

 

[Mudd]

Thadiun Okona.

 

[at Quark's]

I would say both Picard and Data, though of course there is a profound difference. Data's morality is essentially that of a (good) and extremely intelligent child. Many of the tempations that would detract from him making the 'moral' choice simply don't get to him (yet). Picard's morality is more of one who has lived through making such choices all his life- even though it may be tarnished here and there and he might be somewhat smug and holier than thou about it sometimes.

Alan Turing who practically invented computer science thought that there was a fundamental difference between human intelligence and artificial intelligence and that was the possibility of making a choice and we can see it's true when either Data or the Doctor's ethical subroutines are turned off instantly.

What is the fundamental difference between what you describe and someone who has a stroke, and displays a very different personality after that ? That's been known to happen. Frankly, we don't even know for sure if we actually have any freedom to make choices or that in fact our brain 'decides for us', so to speak.

 

[Discofan]

Thadiun Okona.

Good one.

 

[worf1965]

I go with Worf. Surprise given my screen name. Klingons always talk of honor but when it comes down to it rarely exhibit true honor. Worf, at least in TNG, epitomized true honor. Yes he is imperfect, but I have never seen a more honorable character (or person) than Worf (except maybe Mr. Rogers).

 

[Discofan]

I go with Worf. Surprise given my screen name. Klingons always talk of honor but when it comes down to it rarely exhibit true honor. Worf, at least in TNG, epitomized true honor. Yes he is imperfect, but I have never seen a more honorable character (or person) than Worf (except maybe Mr. Rogers).

There is quite a difference between Klingon honor and what we'd call moral. Klingons think it's honorable to kill sick people in their beds for example.

 

[worf1965]

There is quite a difference between Klingon honor and what we'd call moral. Klingons think it's honorable to kill sick people in their beds for example.

That's my point. Klingons say they're honorable but really aren't. Worf is truly honorable and for me his honor is moral.

 

[Discofan]

That's my point. Klingons say they're honorable but really aren't. Worf is truly honorable and for me his honor is moral.

I didn't appreciate the way he disturbed the small community in Birthright II. The Romulan was a kind man and he addressed him like he was the worst thing in the world. If the Romulan was anything like what he said he would have shot him the moment Worf dared him to do so.

 

[Farscape One]

That was a prejudice that Worf never got past until STAR TREK NEMESIS. And understandable, given his history.

Side note: I really do not like that movie, but one thing I did appreciate was that little moment when Worf said the Romulans fought with honor. A statement like from Worf, of all people, is a big one and shows he is finally getting past his prejudice of them.

 

[Discofan]

I didn't vote for La Forge and I am beginning to regret it. Because as hard as I try, I can't find any instance of Geordi being unkind or unethical in any way. And he's possibly the only one in that case.

 

[suarezguy]

Picard ranks really high but he just a little too often seems a little too arbitrary. I've got to go with Worf, despite his rare faults he was pretty great in being committed to and passionate about his own principles while also being pretty tolerant, respectful, cooperative with other views and principles, really dedicated to the Starfleet/Federation ideals overall despite not personally embracing all of them all the time-and that seeming very reasonable and sincere rather than hypocritical.

 

[Mojochi]

I didn't appreciate the way he disturbed the small community in Birthright II. The Romulan was a kind man and he addressed him like he was the worst thing in the world. If the Romulan was anything like what he said he would have shot him the moment Worf dared him to do so.

I had a real problem with him in that episode too. It's honestly like he's learned nothing from the Prime Directive. True, it may not necessarily apply to this specific community, but the spirit of it does imho. Those people were fine without him, most didn't want him involved, & all he's really doing is pushing his own ideals onto a group, as if his is the only right choice for them, without exception

Worf is one of the most narrowminded Trek characters ever written. That he ever shows a moment of tolerance & absence of prejudice is looked at as a major breakthrough for him. Case in point, his own son is a quarter Human, raised by a half human mother, & once she's dead, he's does everything in his power to discourage, stifle, & condemn that influence altogether, to the detriment of him

 

[Discofan]

I had a real problem with him in that episode too. It's honestly like he's learned nothing from the Prime Directive. True, it may not necessarily apply to this specific community, but the spirit of it does imho. Those people were fine without him, most didn't want him involved, & all he's really doing is pushing his own ideals onto a group, as if his is the only right choice for them, without exception

Worf is one of the most narrowminded Trek characters ever written. That he ever shows a moment of tolerance & absence of prejudice is looked at as a major breakthrough for him. Case in point, his own son is a quarter Human, raised by a half human mother, & once she's dead, he's does everything in his power to discourage, stifle, & condemn that influence altogether, to the detriment of him

Yes, and as a result, it really messed up his son. So much that he even traveled back in time to kill... HIMSELF!!! His son who really wasn't made for "warrior life" did everything on DS9 to fit in that life. Worf should have left him alone, altogether! Perhaps he would have become a geek or a writer but at least he would have been a happy one!

 

[suarezguy]

I had a real problem with him in that episode too. It's honestly like he's learned nothing from the Prime Directive. True, it may not necessarily apply to this specific community, but the spirit of it does imho. Those people were fine without him, most didn't want him involved, & all he's really doing is pushing his own ideals onto a group, as if his is the only right choice for them, without exception

The young people were fine with how they were living (being forced to live) because they didn't know any different alternative, many quickly became strongly interested in Worf's ideals and practices when he presented them as an alternative. He was disruptive to a penal society that was relatively tolerant, benevolent and functional but still a kind of prison.

 

[Discofan]

The young people were fine with how they were living (being forced to live) because they didn't know any different alternative, many quickly became strongly interested in Worf's ideals and practices when he presented them as an alternative. He was disruptive to a penal society that was relatively tolerant, benevolent and functional but still a kind of prison.

He imposed his views on a colony that was fine without them. It's no different from the young people who are now corrupted by extremists to become terrorists and later even turn against their own country. If the Romulan (I don't remember his name) was as brutal and imposing as Worf was. He would have eliminated Worf much sooner than he tried to. Worf was prejudiced and even racist to the point of rejecting Ba'el based on her genetic origin alone. That's about as racist as one can get!

 

[Mojochi]

The young people were fine with how they were living (being forced to live) because they didn't know any different alternative, many quickly became strongly interested in Worf's ideals and practices when he presented them as an alternative. He was disruptive to a penal society that was relatively tolerant, benevolent and functional but still a kind of prison.

While this is true, or at least was at one point, what has become of it now is a society more than just a prison state, where the very lead in the episode is a mixed heritage woman of both cultures. I'm not saying it was wrong to introduce his influence, but the way he did it was ultimately intolerant. He did it by suggesting that how they were living was wrong, not by saying how they could be living might be something to consider. That's the difference & why I have a problem with his actions. That you have to lie about where they come from at the end is evidence for how this was all handled badly imho