Spoilers Who is sympathetic to the Klingons?
- Thread starter Charles Phipps
- Start date
And softening the Klingons to the point where they no longer seemed threatening, but that's another story.
I don't think they were actually all that softened.
Mind you, **** the Federation for how they treated them.
1. Yes, let's cover up the crimes of Duras to avoid a civil war and thus aid and abet him in said civil war.
2. Let's get all mad at Worf for ENDING said civil war by killing Duras.
3. Let's "help" the Klingons by abetting in a scheme to make a mockery of their religion with Clone-Jesus.
I swear, Star Trek: Online is seemingly the only place the Borg, Section 31, and Klingons can get any respect.
Can't argue with those points. For a utopian democracy the 24th century Federation does a lot of tasteless and asshole things that run counter to the founding principles of the organization.
It just occurred to me that Starfleet/the Federation has a gulag. We saw Tom Paris in it episode one of Voyager.
Yeah, let's face it, for all the talk of ideals, the Federation plays geopolitics from the Klingon Civil War to the whole Maqius storyline. They are a far superior system apparently to anything we have know in history. They have no scarcity, no discernable classes, great healthcare, but they clearly are not perfect.
Going back to the OP, I have *some* sympathy for their depiction here in that they are very much divided and ruled by petty warlords and that needs to change. I feel bad by how low and degenerate a state the Klingons are in right now. But how it's being done... That is not thus far sympathetic.
This storyline actually reminds me of the film "Mongol" about Genghis Khan. Basically similar set up, that he comes in and tries to unite the waring Mongol tribes. I would say that in Mongol, they more successfully depict Genghis as sympathetic than Discovery does T'Kuvma and Toq. (By the way, the cinematography is stunning in that movie).
In my view, looking at history, I can't say I am sympathetic to Genghis, however the grandson Kublia Khan was arguably an outstanding ruler. I would prefer a Klingon that had those qualities.
Slightly off topic again, but I see Bin Laden and ISIS mentioned a lot as unsympathetic. However Paul Atriedes from Dune can be read as a Bin Laden or ISIS type of character. So I suppose a good enough story teller can make any type of figure compelling if they know how to write them. The Klingons need a Paul Atriedes, but instead they got T'Kuvma, dead by episode two.
I don't view T'Kuvma as being a cold cynical opportunist. I have a tendency to think that charasmatic and revolutionary figures have a higher probably of being sincere than procedural career politicians, whether or not I actually agree with their revolution not as much the issue but rather that I believe they believe in their cause. Case in point, I believe Hitler really believes he was on a path of destiny and that he truly was der Furher. Of course when one's revolution is stepped in metaphysics and superstition instead of more grounded views, they is a higher potential of things really going awry. I am having a hard time seeing/believing this religious reawakening for the Klingons is going to somehow successfully transform them into TOS Klingons or TNG Klingons. We will have to see how this unfolds I guess to see how convincing it ends up being.
Yeah, let's face it, for all the talk of ideals, the Federation plays geopolitics from the Klingon Civil War to the whole Maqius storyline. They are a far superior system apparently to anything we have know in history. They have no scarcity, no discernable classes, great healthcare, but they clearly are not perfect.
Going back to the OP, I have *some* sympathy for their depiction here in that they are very much divided and ruled by petty warlords and that needs to change. I feel bad by how low and degenerate a state the Klingons are in right now. But how it's being done... That is not thus far sympathetic.
This storyline actually reminds me of the film "Mongol" about Genghis Khan. Basically similar set up, that he comes in and tries to unite the waring Mongol tribes. I would say that in Mongol, they more successfully depict Genghis as sympathetic than Discovery does T'Kuvma and Toq. (By the way, the cinematography is stunning in that movie).
In my view, looking at history, I can't say I am sympathetic to Genghis, however the grandson Kublia Khan was arguably an outstanding ruler. I would prefer a Klingon that had those qualities.
Slightly off topic again, but I see Bin Laden and ISIS mentioned a lot as unsympathetic. However Paul Atriedes from Dune can be read as a Bin Laden or ISIS type of character. So I suppose a good enough story teller can make any type of figure compelling if they know how to write them. The Klingons need a Paul Atriedes, but instead they got T'Kuvma, dead by episode two.
I don't view T'Kuvma as being a cold cynical opportunist. I have a tendency to think that charasmatic and revolutionary figures have a higher probably of being sincere than procedural career politicians, whether or not I actually agree with their revolution not as much the issue but rather that I believe they believe in their cause. Case in point, I believe Hitler really believes he was on a path of destiny and that he truly was der Furher. Of course when one's revolution is stepped in metaphysics and superstition instead of more grounded views, they is a higher potential of things really going awry. I am having a hard time seeing/believing this religious reawakening for the Klingons is going to somehow successfully transform them into TOS Klingons or TNG Klingons. We will have to see how this unfolds I guess to see how convincing it ends up being.
That’s an interesting analogy since President Donald Trump has been compared to Baron Vladimir Harkonnen on more than one occasion.
The Federation does not have a gulag. Tom Paris was sent to the most pleasant looking penal colony ever seen. He wasn't sent there to die.
Wait, the Federation does have a gulag. Burnhams fellow prisoners were sent to some horrible dilithium mines which would make Rura Penthe look like Tom Paris' penal colony.
Wait, the Federation does have a gulag. Burnhams fellow prisoners were sent to some horrible dilithium mines which would make Rura Penthe look like Tom Paris' penal colony.
Since we never actually saw this "gulag", I think the jury's still out on that point.
Besides...Stone, Cold and Psycho (
) were dangerous, violent killers. It would not make a ton of sense to send them to the same kind of penal colony that Tom Paris was in.
Technically, they probably would be treated as insane rather than criminals as we see with Garth of Izzar.
But does it make sense for them to be eating dinner unchained in a room with the likes of Tilly in it?Since we never actually saw this "gulag", I think the jury's still out on that point.
Besides...Stone, Cold and Psycho (
Does it make sense to open Ripper's cage for the first time(Oh....I mean second time
) with Tilly standing there?
Obviously. I'm sure Burnham is counting on being able outrun Tilly.Does it make sense to open Ripper's cage for the first time(Oh....I mean second time
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