Who Is Moffat Making The Series For?

[The Nth Doctor]

The minute Steven Moffat was announced as the new showrunner, I knew fandom would turn on him. He'd been fandom's golden boy for years, especially after "Blink." And sure enough -- *everything's* wrong with him now! It's hysterical.

Good grief, must you really drag this out every single time there's a thread critizing the current run of the show? WE GET IT. You think you're amazing for making this incredibly insightful prediction and you laugh yourself silly over the whole matter.

Guess what? These threads don't represent everyone. Hell, I don't think they even represents the majority of the fans in this forum. Like everything else around here, they're the vocal minority. And you know what? I'm more tired of you bring out that trite comment every single time this comes up then some people wailing about how Moffat has ruined Doctor Who.

 

[Sci]

Too bad if it feels like it, 'cos it's not. It's expressing an opinion, too -- the opinion that there is a such thing as taking something a bit too earnestly and letting that get in the way of the fun of the story.

I think the OT poster, as I, feel that there is NO fun in these stories. I see potential and I see any tension or drama just dissipate as a series of incoherent logical flaws take me out of the story and thwart any emotional connection I might have to the scene or the characters.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't have that problem at all, and, frankly, I suspect that we're reaching a point where it's subjective and not really subject to logical argumentation. I see some of the same flaws in the narrative that you do, but I don't see them as being nearly as all-encompassing as you.

And what you and others like you are actually engaging in is, in my belief, something sinister.

Oh, get off it. Sometimes people disagree with you, say so, but don't feel like getting into a detailed debate about why. That's not sinister, that's not oppressive, that's not marginalization. You're welcome to continue to say why you didn't enjoy the work.

 

[GabeHimself]

Good grief, must you really drag this out every single time there's a thread critizing the current run of the show? WE GET IT. You think you're amazing for making this incredibly insightful prediction and you laugh yourself silly.

Guess what? These threads don't represent everyone. Hell, I don't think it even represents the majority of the fans in this forum. Like everything else around here, it's the vocal minority. And you know what? I'm more tired of you bring out that trite comment every single time then some people wailing about how Moffat has ruined Doctor Who.

 

[Turbo]

GabeHimself, what awards are you talking about, specifically? None of the awards (BAFTAs, Nebula, Hugo) for which Series 5 was eligible and Doctor Who traditionally wins have been awarded yet. Doctor Who wasn't nominated for the 2010 BAFTAs, for the specials under RTD; they have two nominations for 2011 under Moffat (Best Actor and Best Drama Series). "Vincent and the Doctor" was nominated for Best Script of 2010 in the 2011 Nebula Awards, and both "The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang" and "A Christmas Carol" were nominated for the Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form for the 2011 Hugo Awards.

You think he's de-emphasizing the characters in favor of temporal mechanics, etc? How about "Vincent and the Doctor"? "The Lodger"? "A Christmas Carol"? Three stories which had wonderful guest characters, and that doesn't even count the development Amy & Rory's relationship over Series 5, which I found much more believable than any of the relationships in the RTD era except for maybe Jackie & Pete.

Just trying to provide some counterarguments instead of attacks here.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I take back my comment that you were attacking Gabe...perhaps that was the wrong term to use. It seems we can't have any kind of debate without a thread degenerating into personal attacks (again that might be the wrong term to use but that is what it seems like happens all the time here).

 

[Australis]

Still catching up.

Allyn Gibson said:

(Which, by the way, I'm not convinced is real -- a little girl wouldn't fit in that suit.)

There was a mention of an exoskeleton inside the spacesuit, which is presumably girl-sized.

 

[GabeHimself]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I don't have that problem at all, and, frankly, I suspect that we're reaching a point where it's subjective and not really subject to logical argumentation. I see some of the same flaws in the narrative that you do, but I don't see them as being nearly as all-encompassing as you.

Oh, get off it. Sometimes people disagree with you, say so, but don't feel like getting into a detailed debate about why. That's not sinister, that's not oppressive, that's not marginalization. You're welcome to continue to say why you didn't enjoy the work.

Disagreement is welcome. Saying that criticism is a result of hysteria, irrationality or being a fanboy subverts the ability for this place to be a forum where fans can freely discuss Doctor Who.

Think about it for a second. The freedom to argue the merits of the show is not something subjective. I'm not arguing that your opinion of the show focusing on plot is bad. I'm arguing that saying someone's hysterical or a fanboy is not valid and shutsdown debate. And this happens in fandom across all genres. I'm just engaging it head on because I'm kind of tired of it. Let these people discuss it. Jeez.

 

[Sci]

Disagreement is welcome. Saying that criticism is a result of hysteria, irrationality or being a fanboy subverts the ability for this place to be a forum where fans can freely discuss Doctor Who.

I completely agree -- which is why it is fortunate that nobody said that.

 

[GabeHimself]

GabeHimself, what awards are you talking about, specifically? None of the awards (BAFTAs, Nebula, Hugo) for which Series 5 was eligible and Doctor Who traditionally wins have been awarded yet. Doctor Who wasn't nominated for the 2010 BAFTAs, for the specials under RTD; they have two nominations for 2011 under Moffat (Best Actor and Best Drama Series). "Vincent and the Doctor" was nominated for Best Script of 2010 in the 2011 Nebula Awards, and both "The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang" and "A Christmas Carol" were nominated for the Best Dramatic Presentation, Short Form for the 2011 Hugo Awards.

You think he's de-emphasizing the characters in favor of temporal mechanics, etc? How about "Vincent and the Doctor"? "The Lodger"? "A Christmas Carol"? Three stories which had wonderful guest characters, and that doesn't even count the development Amy & Rory's relationship over Series 5, which I found much more believable than any of the relationships in the RTD era except for maybe Jackie & Pete.

Just trying to provide some counterarguments instead of attacks here.

Thank you!

About the awards -- could've sworn RTDs DW has been BAFTA nominated and Hugo nominated. And I was talking about the show under their Production tenures. I'm sure Blink has won awards.

The Eleventh Hour and The Lodger were some of the best episodes of Doctor Who I've ever seen. That said . . .

I find Amy and Rory as unbelievable and cardboardish. I think their relationship is undermined by Amy being reluctant to marry Rory and kind of throwing herself at the Doctor at the end of Flesh & Stone. It's further undermined by him remembering being a plastic man that stood guard for 2,000 years in a starless universe that was undone by a reverse explosion of a Pandorica inside a TARDIS. It's just so disengaging and alienating for me.

I loved Amelia though. I loved her little teddy bear packing scene and her sitting, waiting for The Doctor.

But Martha's parents and Donna's mum and Wilf were far more developed than Amy or Rory or their family.

I thought Vincent & The Doctor was a boring and pointless episode. The Doctor didn't do anything. Vincent sees a Monster. Vincent kills a Monster. *shrug*

I love Matt Smith's acting skills actually. I find it disappointing that Moffat's letting him down so terribly. And even worse if we're in for a third season of Rory and Amy and River. *shudders*

 

[GabeHimself]

I completely agree -- which is why it is fortunate that nobody said that.

OmahaStar said that. Then you kind of chimed in with talk of "hysterics".

But I'm glad that you've corrected your statement, Senator Kyl.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ Interesting thoughts. I disagree with a few of them but am too tired to get into why right now. I'll post again later on.

 

[Turbo]

About the awards -- could've sworn RTDs DW has been BAFTA nominated and Hugo nominated. And I was talking about the show under their Production tenures. I'm sure Blink has won awards.

Yes, Doctor Who's been nominated for BAFTAs every season since it came back except for the season with the specials. They've also been nominated for Hugos every year, including the specials. Your comment implied that they haven't won any awards under Moffatt, which is true but only because they haven't had any of the awards ceremonies for which Series 5 was eligible yet.

The Eleventh Hour and The Lodger were some of the best episodes of Doctor Who I've ever seen. That said . . .

I find Amy and Rory as unbelievable and cardboardish. I think their relationship is undermined by Amy being reluctant to marry Rory and kind of throwing herself at the Doctor at the end of Flesh & Stone. It's further undermined by him remembering being a plastic man that stood guard for 2,000 years in a starless universe that was undone by a reverse explosion of a Pandorica inside a TARDIS. It's just so disengaging and alienating for me.

I think this is, as much as you don't want to hear it, just a matter of taste. The whole "boy who waited" aspect is exactly what I love about Rory, how he wasn't willing to leave her alone.

And the Flesh & Stone thing was pretty well wrapped up by Amy's Choice, I thought, where she finally realized that she really, truly does love Rory and not the Doctor.

I loved Amelia though. I loved her little teddy bear packing scene and her sitting, waiting for The Doctor.

But Martha's parents and Donna's mum and Wilf were far more developed than Amy or Rory or their family.

I agree with you about Sylvia Noble & Wilf being much more developed than Amy & Rory's family, but I do think that Amy & Rory are just as developed, if not more.

I disagree about Martha's parents; they always came off as fairly one-dimensional to me (though I love the scene where her mother nearly shoots the Master).

I thought Vincent & The Doctor was a boring and pointless episode. The Doctor didn't do anything. Vincent sees a Monster. Vincent kills a Monster. *shrug*

Again, this is just a matter of taste. It's one of those things that you just can't quantify, I guess. But I can see where people might not like it.

I love Matt Smith's acting skills actually. I find it disappointing that Moffat's letting him down so terribly. And even worse if we're in for a third season of Rory and Amy and River. *shudders*

It sounds like River's story is ending soon. Amy & Rory? I dunno. I think we'll know closer to the middle of this season whether or not they stay for another.

 

[Sci]

Thank you!

The Eleventh Hour and The Lodger were some of the best episodes of Doctor Who I've ever seen. That said . . .

I find Amy and Rory as unbelievable and cardboardish. I think their relationship is undermined by Amy being reluctant to marry Rory and kind of throwing herself at the Doctor at the end of Cold Blood.

1. Minor nitpick: Amy threw herself at the Doctor at the end of "Flesh and Stone," not "Cold Blood."

2. Why does Amy's hitting on the Doctor undermine things? I would argue that it makes the character more three-dimensional, less cardboard. There are plenty of loving couples in the world who, earlier in their lives, hesitated to make life-long commitments and were tempted by somebody else. That doesn't mean they aren't truly in love -- it just means that they're human.

It's further undermined by him remembering being a plastic man that stood guard for 2,000 years in a starless universe

I don't get that at all. To me, that's probably one of the most romantic concepts in all of Doctor Who -- a love that lasts for two thousand years.

Now, I will say that I don't think the idea was executed as well as I would have wanted -- the fact that the episode was told through the POV of the Doctor, who went from seeing Rory in Roman times to seeing Rory in 1996, took away from the feeling of how long Rory was waiting for her. But I don't think that Rory's willingness to protect Amy for so many centuries, nor his memory of it, undermines their relationship one bit. It adds to it.

But Martha's parents and Donna's mum and Wilf were far more developed than Amy or Rory or their family.

Well, that's because we've only ever seen Amy's family in one episode, very briefly. And we've never seen Rory's.

I thought Vincent & The Doctor was a boring and pointless episode. The Doctor didn't do anything. Vincent sees a Monster. Vincent kills a Monster. *shrug*

I am completely and utterfly flabergasted by that critique. To start with, "Vincent and the Doctor" was almost completely character-driven, which is what you've said you liked about RTD's era. Further, I thought "Vincent and the Doctor" was a wonderful exploration of mental illness in a manner that's moderated appropriately for children. I thought that it was a beautiful, moving exploration of how depression can harm people, but also of how people can find it in themselves to fight depression and achieve great things in spite of it. It is literally one of my most favorite episodes of television ever produced.

I completely agree -- which is why it is fortunate that nobody said that.

OmahaStar said that. Then you kind of chimed in with talk of "hysterics".

Once again: OmahaStar did not claim that criticism was a result of "hysteria, irrationality, or being a fanboy." he said that he thinks you're being a bit too earnest about the flaws you perceive in the show and that you are reacting disproportionately to its flaws.

Once again: I never accused anyone of hysterics or of being irrational. I said that I found the fact that fandom has gone from praising everything Moffat wrote to being upset at everything Moffat writes to be amusing. It was not a statement aimed at any particular person, but at aggregate fandom behavior.

You are now repeating a false claim that has already been corrected. Please stop lying about your fellow posters.

 

[Neroon]

A few of you need to head back to your corners for awhile, after making this more personal than is necessary. The thread will be closed for awhile to allow that. If you're interested in discussing the episodes that have aired so far, you can easily find those threads.