Who is a bigger wuss, Harriman or Estaban?

[Timo]

Indeed; and meshing with what Marian says, the anomaliously high-ranking Esteban might have been chosen for the politically intricate mission specifically because he was considered "mature" enough not to embarrass anybody.

Although Starfleet's approach to this thing is a bit schitzo, to be sure. If the wussy ship was selected in order to keep the project under the lid, then Starfleet is way too late, as people in a random bar on Earth already know about Genesis. Indeed, there's even an official ban against going there - so why isn't Starfleet enforcing that ban by sending a few warships?

Odds are, the warship-surveyor combo, or a big and impressive multipurpose vessel, could quickly establish that there's nothing risky on the Genesis planet. That is, there's nothing there that would help hostile governments along their competing Genesis research, so the place could soon be declared an open planet, and the peaceful goals and means of the Federation could be explicated and promoted in a propaganda coup.

Then again, it's a natural reaction to slam a heavy blockade on this thing at first, then move in timid steps, as nobody really has enough of a command of the facts to decide on the most advantageous course of action.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

My impression was that as the Klingons considered it to be a planet-killer weapon, any overt show of militarirsm surrounding Genesis could have been seen as an act of war. Although it never made a good show of itself, we could hope that the Grissom was capable of handling civilian encroachers. Nobody was expecting an officially-unsanctioned Klingon to pop by.

In defense of Esteban (who I still think is the bigger wuss), it could be that "prepare for evasive" was about him hoping that the Klingons could be dealt with diplomatically, since the Federation wasn't at war with them at the time.

 

[cardinal biggles]

I got the impression that Kruge wasn't sanctioned by the Empire, but the scene where he, Torg, and Maltz watch the Genesis tape leaves that a bit ambiguous...

We are going to this "planet." Even as our emissaries negotiate for "peace" with the Federation, we will act for the preservation of our race! We will seize the secret of this weapon. The secret of ultimate power!

So is the Empire sending Kruge out on a secret mission and keeping up negotiations just as a stalling tactic, or is Kruge a rogue, hoping that the capture of the Genesis information will lead him to greater glory?

The fact that the Klingon ambassador defends him in front of the Federation Council in Voyage Home just muddies things; it would be so easy to say the guy was just a crazy asshole acting against orders. To stick up for him more or less admits the Empire wasn't negotiating in good faith.

 

[SeerSGB]

I got the impression that Kruge wasn't sanctioned by the Empire, but the scene where he, Torg, and Maltz watch the Genesis tape leaves that a bit ambiguous...

We are going to this "planet." Even as our emissaries negotiate for "peace" with the Federation, we will act for the preservation of our race! We will seize the secret of this weapon. The secret of ultimate power!

So is the Empire sending Kruge out on a secret mission and keeping up negotiations just as a stalling tactic, or is Kruge a rogue, hoping that the capture of the Genesis information will lead him to greater glory?

The fact that the Klingon ambassador defends him in front of the Federation Council in Voyage Home just muddies things; it would be so easy to say the guy was just a crazy asshole acting against orders. To stick up for him more or less admits the Empire wasn't negotiating in good faith.

How do we know that Kruge wasn't officially deployed on a science mission that was approved by the Federation-- a "what do we have to hide, send one of your own ships to see for yourself". It just happens that Kruge was given unofficial orders to obtain the Genesis data for military use, or he simply went renegade on them.

 

[Timo]

One would assume that even the most byzantine bureaucracy would manage to inform Esteban of the impending arrival of his Klingon counterparts if this arrival was really sanctioned.

Kruge does sound like a rogue, much like Klaa later on. Then again, he might be more of a privateer, one of those hotheads who were considered excellent recipients for the newest in space piracy hardware, namely the cloak-capable BoP. The more damage he did to the Federation, the better, but the Empire wouldn't recognize him if he got caught.

One wonders how much control the Empire really had over its military back then, or later in the TNG era. The system of powerful Houses smacks of weakly led feudalism where the Houses do pretty much as they please, and the Emperor begs and grovels to get them to cooperate on a joint military campaign every now and then.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gagarin]

My impression was that as the Klingons considered it to be a planet-killer weapon, any overt show of militarirsm surrounding Genesis could have been seen as an act of war. Although it never made a good show of itself, we could hope that the Grissom was capable of handling civilian encroachers. Nobody was expecting an officially-unsanctioned Klingon to pop by.

That's interesting, too.
It was like Genesis was the worst kept secret in known-space. Having a full convoy would draw a lot of attention - and would be more difficult to contain information with so many eyes in the sector. Maybe the last thing Star Fleet wanted was for the Romulans and Klingons see lots of ships be re-routed and pulled back toward the core. I wonder what the spin Starfleet put on the Genesis activation was. It doesn't seem Kruge knew anything about the Reliant incident. I wouldn't want word to get out that MY ships were being hijacked and attacked while my enemies saw my ships pull in. That would be an opportune time to strike.

OTOH, if it was a by-the-book survey, with a commander who would be sure to let SF micromanage what was happening, I don't suppose they expected any real troubles. Maybe a destroyer stationed outside was doing picket duty but the BOP easily slipped by and the Enterprise was allowed to slip by after they saw Kirk meant business. I wouldn't want to cause another incident of friendly-fire if I was Starfleet.

 

[General_Phoenix]

Estaban no doubt. Of course he was written so the viewer wouldn't really like him anyway. Harriman was put in a difficult situation, and he knew his ship wasn't yet equipped to handle it, added to that he had some legendary people on the bridge with him, and the press there staring him in the face made for an intemidating situation no doubt.

Would have been interesting to see how Estaban handled the Kobayashi Maru, he probably tried to consult a rule book somewhere and bored the simulator so that it just shut down.

 

[Cyke101]

Estaban no doubt. Of course he was written so the viewer wouldn't really like him anyway. Harriman was put in a difficult situation, and he knew his ship wasn't yet equipped to handle it, added to that he had some legendary people on the bridge with him, and the press there staring him in the face made for an intemidating situation no doubt.

With all those factors taken into account, I think I sensed a bit of Harriman getting a slow but gradual rise of self-empowerment when Kirk stopped Harriman and basically told him, "It's your ship, kid. You know what's best."

Considering Kirk's legendary status, I think the modern-day equivalent would be Michael Jordan setting up a nervous rookie for a shot, rather than the other way around. It showed Kirk's trust in Harriman, which in turn gave Harriman a huge boost of confidence.

 

[Phantassm]

Notable exception is Sulu in command of Excelsior in TUC.

Only because he was one of our beloved hero crew first. Probably the only Starfleet officer of command grade or higher in the TOS movies who had a substantial role, hadn't served on the Enterprise, and wasn't portrayed as an idiot and/or asshole was Terrell in TWOK. His ship got taken over and he met a horrible end, but he was a sympathetic character who had the mental fortitude and heroism to resist Khan's commands and take his own life rather than kill Kirk.

About the only other starship captain who seemed to have some balls in the TOS movies was Styles, despite the fact he was a pompous martinet.

We didn't get to see how competent he would have been if he'd gotten his ship out of orbit...but he definitely fell into the "asshole" category, which just makes him a straw man of a different flavor.

Harriman: Idiot
Styles: Asshole
Esteban: Idiot and Asshole

True about Sulu. However, Terrell was also portrayed as kind of weak, notwithstanding refusing Khan's command to kill Kirk. And sure, we didn't get to see Styles in action, but would Starfleet necessarily give command of their most advanced new ship to an incompetent? Hardly likely. -- RR

How was Terrell portrayed weak? I don't particularly remember him being weak in any of his scenes.

 

[LeadHead]

I always thought that Harriman was the bigger wuss. Esteban had control of his vessel, even if his reaction time was poor and any reasonable Captain when seeing a warship coming at him that there was no chance he could defeat would say "GET US OUT OF HERE! MAXIMUM WARP!"

Harriman had such a minute level of control over his ship, Esteban at least could command his bridge, Harriman was just too small for his ship, he probably would make a good Captain of an Oberth class ship like the Grissom, but not an Enterprise. He was a schmoozer, without the actual skill to go with it the way Kirk had it. I always thought he was some HIgh ranking Admirals favorite Officer and that's why he got the assignment as Captain.

 

[USS KG5]

I always thought that Harriman was the bigger wuss. Esteban had control of his vessel, even if his reaction time was poor and any reasonable Captain when seeing a warship coming at him that there was no chance he could defeat would say "GET US OUT OF HERE! MAXIMUM WARP!"

Exactly - and he didn't - probably his ship was just not capable of breaking out of orbit and going to warp in the time he had, he knew they were all dead.

That is not wussy - he just didn't stand a chance.

Harriman was just too small for his ship, he probably would make a good Captain of an Oberth class ship like the Grissom, but not an Enterprise. He was a schmoozer, without the actual skill to go with it the way Kirk had it. I always thought he was some HIgh ranking Admirals favorite Officer and that's why he got the assignment as Captain.

I've spoken to this about Harriman earlier in the thread - but I think he was probably chosen precisely because he is different from Kirk.

Kirk did not always get it right - he generally saved the day but pissed off a lot of people in the process, Picard a hundred years later was clearly more diplomatic in his approach. It is possible that Captains like Harriman were given the prestigious commands that get press attention, and the future Kirks left with the Excelsiors ht got launched quietly with less attention.

 

[PhoenixIreland]

Everyone loves a rebel, and sometimes breaking the rules is nessicary, but is anyone in NASA or the military broke the rules as much as Kirk did they woudn't be heros they'd be discharged.