Who has done a TOS E cross-section?

[Warped9]

The drawings of the Enterprise in TMoST differ from the 11 footer in certain shapes and details—it’s not the same as what we see on the screen.

Now maybe someone can clarify this: how detailed were MJ’s construction drawings and how do they differ from what Datin actually built? Did Datin improvise on the drawings supplied to him by Matt Jefferies? Did MJ dictate changes after the construction drawings were delivered and construction was begun or did Datin clear any improvised changes with MJ first before he made them? And why was Jefferies drawing the ship different from what the now completed 11 footer actually was?

 

[yotsuya]

The drawings of the Enterprise in TMoST differ from the 11 footer in certain shapes and details—it’s not the same as what we see on the screen.

Now maybe someone can clarify this: how detailed were MJ’s construction drawings and how do they differ from what Datin actually built? Did Datin improvise on the drawings supplied to him by Matt Jefferies? Did MJ dictate changes after the construction drawings were delivered and construction was begun or did Datin clear any improvised changes with MJ first before he made them? And why was Jefferies drawing the ship different from what the now completed 11 footer actually was?

Ah, for this we can turn again to David Shaw who has reconstructed the drawings and timelines of what Jefferies sent to Datin and that includes the scale of the ship.

So when you look at all of them together, you see that the drawings that appeared on screen with the Klingon cruiser were very similar to a series revision of his orginal construction drawings.

How exactly Shaw came up with this I do not know, but Richard Datin did not change very much about the design. He simplified the secondary hull and he made the dome on the 33 inch model too fat, but otherwise it is pretty close to what Jefferies drew. The 33 inch and the 11 foot are almost identical. The 33 inch model was 1/4 the size of the 11 foot model.

Also, as to what constitutes "the same ship" in Star Trek is pretty murky. It is pretty clear that with several different models that appear on screen and a couple different on screen drawings, that they are all supposed to be the same ship. This occurs again in the movies where Jefferies Phase II design is what represents the Enterprise in all the Bridge diagrams. And the MSD's created for TNG, DS9, and Voyager all have noticable differences from the models. So all these differences are just production oddities and should be ignored. They don't represent different ships, but just variations in drawings and models of the same ship.

Also of note, most people think the secondary hull on the 11 foot Enterprise is simply conical. It is not. About at the back end of the dorsal/neck the angle changes. So it isn't as pronounced as what Jefferies drew, but it is still there. it is hidden because of the trenches, but when you get a good picture of the secondary hull from the right angle it is quite clear.

I supposed if we looked at the Enterprise in light of all these variations, we could imagine a ship that was a hybrid of these different versions. And in many ways, except for the engine and bridge redesign, that was what the Phase II ship was. But most of us seem to prefer the lines of the 11 foot model. I know I do.

 

[Warped9]

I have always accepted the 11 footer, in its three evolving versions, as the most definitive Enterprise (also allowing for the unfinished port side which to my mind’s eye was finished). The 33 incher is essentially something like a stunt double that looks rather different if you look too closely.

In like manner for me the full-size exterior mockup was the “real” Galileo (allowing for it to be smaller than what it would actually be) and the small filming miniature was a quick stand in.

I just find it odd how MJ was drawing the ship noticeably differently in detail than its finalized form as represented by the 11 footer in its series production form.

 

[yotsuya]

I just find it odd how MJ was drawing the ship noticeably differently in detail than its finalized form as represented by the 11 footer in its series production form.

As I pointed out, it kept happening. Phase II for the TMP Refit, the Excelsior and Enterprise B MSDs that were noticeably different from the model, the use of the FASA drawing of the Excelsior in the LCARS display on Ent E. The slightly screwy Excelsior relief model in the Ent D conference room. This was not confined to TOS, though it was probably more pronounced in TOS. I think Jefferies drew the Enterprise the way he saw it. Though I still have not made any sense of his cross section other than the obvious areas.

 

[Professor Moriarty]

I’m just glad that earlier design for the front end of the secondary hull never made it to production. It makes the Enterprise look like a dinner plate flying in formation with a gigantic baby’s bottle.

 

[blssdwlf]

It's not my illustration. It's Jefferies'. I just put the 5'11" (in boots) figures for scale.

Yeah, but if your figures are scaled correctly then the bridge turbolift is a decapitating machine.

Also, as to what constitutes "the same ship" in Star Trek is pretty murky. It is pretty clear that with several different models that appear on screen and a couple different on screen drawings, that they are all supposed to be the same ship. This occurs again in the movies where Jefferies Phase II design is what represents the Enterprise in all the Bridge diagrams. And the MSD's created for TNG, DS9, and Voyager all have noticable differences from the models. So all these differences are just production oddities and should be ignored. They don't represent different ships, but just variations in drawings and models of the same ship.

Of all the models that represented Kirk's Enterprise, only the 33" and 11' were ever shown close-up on screen. Is there footage of the smaller 4" and 18" models used as the Enterprise flying in space with enough discernible detail that would change how we view the 11' or 33" version? If not, then for practical purposes do they matter?

As to the Jefferies Drawing, there is HD footage and we can tell the difference between it and the 11' and 33" versions.

I have always accepted the 11 footer, in its three evolving versions, as the most definitive Enterprise (also allowing for the unfinished port side which to my mind’s eye was finished).

Considering there is footage of the 11 footer showing the port side (thanks to the magic of flipping the film and reverse decals) we do have visual evidence that the Enterprise is finished on both sides.

 

[BK613]

Agree with others that the 11-footer is THE ship. And for me, any graphical representation of the ship on a screen, bulkhead or other display can be viewed as an informational diagram that is not required to be schematically accurate (Thinking subway route map vs construction blueprints here) .

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Was it the 33 inch one that was used in "Requiem for Methuselah"? It's the same model that Shatner was holding dressed as Kirk in one or more of the early promotional stills?

 

[Warped9]

Was it the 33 inch one that was used in "Requiem for Methuselah"? It's the same model that Shatner was holding dressed as Kirk in one or more of the early promotional stills?

Yes. In the RFM shot you can see the hangar bay door was missing. Nimoy also posed with the miniature in early promo shots.

 

[blssdwlf]

Was it the 33 inch one that was used in "Requiem for Methuselah"? It's the same model that Shatner was holding dressed as Kirk in one or more of the early promotional stills?

Yes, it is used to represent the Enterprise as being captured by Flint (with missing shuttlebay door and a stand to hold it up underneath the engineering hull).

For a list of episodes where the 33" appears as the Enterprise in space there is Tallguy's excellent catalog. He labels it as the "three footer".
http://www.trekplace.com/tosfxcatalog.html

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yes, it is used to represent the Enterprise as being captured by Flint (with missing shuttlebay door and a stand to hold it up underneath the engineering hull).

For a list of episodes where the 33" appears as the Enterprise in space there is Tallguy's excellent catalog. He labels it as the "three footer".
http://www.trekplace.com/tosfxcatalog.html

Thank you for reminding me of this catalog.

According to this, the Whoosh shot is of the three-footer, used in the opening, and also inside quite a few episodes.

 

[blssdwlf]

Thank you for reminding me of this catalog.

According to this, the Whoosh shot is of the three-footer, used in the opening, and also inside quite a few episodes.

Yep. The "Cage Dish", "Cage Blur Away" and "Barrier Out" shots are where I am able to see the detail of the 33". The other shots have enough blur or distance that hides the different primary hull lower/upper shapes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In the RFM shot you can see the hangar bay door was missing.

Right here: https://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x19hd/requiemformethuselahhd1148.jpg

"Cage Dish" [...] "Barrier Out" shots are where I am able to see the detail of the 33".

And these shots are in the series proper. The shape of the "mound" atop of the saucer in "Barrier Out" is unmistakable.

 

[yotsuya]

Of all the models that represented Kirk's Enterprise, only the 33" and 11' were ever shown close-up on screen. Is there footage of the smaller 4" and 18" models used as the Enterprise flying in space with enough discernible detail that would change how we view the 11' or 33" version? If not, then for practical purposes do they matter?

As to the Jefferies Drawing, there is HD footage and we can tell the difference between it and the 11' and 33" versions.

Yes, the 4 inch model is shown very clearly in The Doomsday Machine and you can make out the details (silver, lack of markings, the odd underside dome that isn't the same. It is the same miniature used in Catspaw. Two were used in Catspaw, the one in the clear block is sill around, the free one that was used in The Doomsday Machine is long gone, like the 33 inch Enterprise. We have some very clear views of the Constellation, but the model used as the Enterprise is distant enough it is hard to make out the details, but it is lit, which differentiates it from the 33 inch model.

The 33 inch model was featured in a lot of photos, both in its original configuration and paint scheme and in the series reconfiguration and paint scheme. I think RFM was its only actual use during the series. The other uses were recycled from pre-series shots. It was the Enterprise for all the shots in The Cage except the zoom in to the bridge shot that was reused several times. Even the zoom by in the opening credits was from The Cage.

And as I pointed out, the drawings we see in post-TOS productions are at least as different as Jefferies drawing is from the 11 foot model. Jefferies Phase II Enterprise used for the TMP refit in TMP and TWOK. And that is most definitely supposed to be the same ship. So any argument that the drawing shown on screen with the scale is supposed to be a different ship is nonsensical. It is supposed to be the same ship and that is quite clear from the episodes it is used in. It is quite clear from TMOST that it is supposed to be the same ship. So it is the same ship, jut another depiction of it.

 

[Commander Troi]

Quick question, because this seems like a group that might know: years ago, I saw an Enterprise model at the Air & Space Museum. Does anyone know if it was actually used in the show and if so, which one it might have been?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Quick question, because this seems like a group that might know: years ago, I saw an Enterprise model at the Air & Space Museum. Does anyone know if it was actually used in the show and if so, which one it might have been?

It's the eleven-footer, recently restored (again).

https://airandspace.si.edu/research/projects/star-trek-starship-enterprise
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Constitution_class_model_(original)

 

[Commander Troi]

Thanks! I nearly fell over when I saw it in displayed in the gift shop.

 

[yotsuya]

It's been on display off and on again since 1974. It was hanging from the ceiling for most of early part of that (until at least 1992). Then it was in one case in the gift shop and now it is in a new one in the Boeing hall of flight (or something like that). It was scrubbed clean in 1974, partially repainted in 1984, totally repainted in 1991, and totally repaired, repainted, researched, and restored to its 1968 appearance in 2015. It sported several incorrect features prior to 2015. Gary Kerr had access to the model in 1991 and took measurements to make accurate plans and those plans were used to make the 5.5 foot model for DS9. He was heavily involved with the 2015 restoration and his drawings were the only ones used.

 

[blssdwlf]

Yes, the 4 inch model is shown very clearly in The Doomsday Machine and you can make out the details (silver, lack of markings, the odd underside dome that isn't the same. It is the same miniature used in Catspaw.

I respectfully disagree that you can discern details from the 4 inch model in "The Doomsday Machine" to differentiate it from the 11 footer. The 4 inch model was lit with different colors (one greenish and one bluish) so I'm not sure where you're getting the "silver" from in the space scene. The "lack of markings" is also present in the 11 footer in the same episode. The "odd underside dome" is also present with odd underside primary hull shapes on the 11 footer (due to the not always consistent matting.)

Given that the 4 inch model just appeared only in one episode in space as the Enterprise and it can't be discerned from the 11' model I'm not seeing how it would change our perception of the 11' or 33" models, IMHO.

For grins, I've pulled images from just "The Doomsday Machine" for a visual comparison. No edits were done to the Enterprises.

Two were used in Catspaw, the one in the clear block is sill around, the free one that was used in The Doomsday Machine is long gone, like the 33 inch Enterprise. We have some very clear views of the Constellation, but the model used as the Enterprise is distant enough it is hard to make out the details, but it is lit, which differentiates it from the 33 inch model.

The 33" is really the only one that has appeared in close-ups with enough detail to differentiate it from the Enterprise in space unlike the 4" and 18" AMT models, IMO. I agree the 18" AMT does give very good information on just the Constellation.

The 33 inch model was featured in a lot of photos, both in its original configuration and paint scheme and in the series reconfiguration and paint scheme. I think RFM was its only actual use during the series. The other uses were recycled from pre-series shots. It was the Enterprise for all the shots in The Cage except the zoom in to the bridge shot that was reused several times. Even the zoom by in the opening credits was from The Cage.

Tallguy's catalog has good listing on how many times the 33" was in an episode as well as which shots (only 3) that really show off the distinctive lower primary hull.

And as I pointed out, the drawings we see in post-TOS productions are at least as different as Jefferies drawing is from the 11 foot model. Jefferies Phase II Enterprise used for the TMP refit in TMP and TWOK. And that is most definitely supposed to be the same ship. So any argument that the drawing shown on screen with the scale is supposed to be a different ship is nonsensical. It is supposed to be the same ship and that is quite clear from the episodes it is used in. It is quite clear from TMOST that it is supposed to be the same ship. So it is the same ship, jut another depiction of it.

It doesn't look or sound very clear. The drawing gives enough discernible details that it can be argued that it is a different version of the 11' or 33" Enterprise as displayed in "The Enterprise Incident". The dialogue is only specific to the Klingon design in use by the Romulans and not about the Enterprise so it is far from clear in the filmed series.

 

[yotsuya]

I respectfully disagree that you can discern details from the 4 inch model in "The Doomsday Machine" to differentiate it from the 11 footer. The 4 inch model was lit with different colors (one greenish and one bluish) so I'm not sure where you're getting the "silver" from in the space scene. The "lack of markings" is also present in the 11 footer in the same episode. The "odd underside dome" is also present with odd underside primary hull shapes on the 11 footer (due to the not always consistent matting.)

Given that the 4 inch model just appeared only in one episode in space as the Enterprise and it can't be discerned from the 11' model I'm not seeing how it would change our perception of the 11' or 33" models, IMHO.

For grins, I've pulled images from just "The Doomsday Machine" for a visual comparison. No edits were done to the Enterprises.

The 33" is really the only one that has appeared in close-ups with enough detail to differentiate it from the Enterprise in space unlike the 4" and 18" AMT models, IMO. I agree the 18" AMT does give very good information on just the Constellation.



Tallguy's catalog has good listing on how many times the 33" was in an episode as well as which shots (only 3) that really show off the distinctive lower primary hull.



It doesn't look or sound very clear. The drawing gives enough discernible details that it can be argued that it is a different version of the 11' or 33" Enterprise as displayed in "The Enterprise Incident". The dialogue is only specific to the Klingon design in use by the Romulans and not about the Enterprise so it is far from clear in the filmed series.

Thank you for posting those phots. I can tell at a glance which is the 4". The neck is longer, the pylons look thinner and the bottom of the saucer has a very odd shape. It is very discernable. As easy to identify as the 33 inch model.

But my point was that they are all supposed to be the same ship. Same with the 3 models of the TMP refit and 3 models of the Ent D and the 4 models of the Excelsior/Ent B. Saying they are different ships when they clearly are intended to be the same seems an odd thing when we all know how loose the these productions are with accuracy. Enterprise and Constellation are supposed to be the same design, down to the interior rooms. The various models are all of the same ship, as are the drawings. Insisting they aren't gets into the area of having to have each and every modified set as a different room on the ship. I think that makes at least 6 engine rooms, a bunch of transporter rooms, at least 2 sickbays, and who knows how much else. It means we have to deal with both a 20 foot shuttle and a 29 foot shuttle. There were mistakes and inconsistencies during production and those do not necessitate each and every inconsistency being a separate thing when we try to standardize what we saw on screen in a tangible format.

These are all the same ship, just in different rendering.

I mean it isn't as if the Jefferies drawings don't have the registry number on them or anything.