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Let's not get hung up on the beach. As I said earlier, this was just used as an example to highlight the limitations of a truly equal, none material society. Imagine there's a beautiful house on the beach and the owner dies (without heirs). Who does that land now belong to? Then let's say that 500 people all want to move into that beautiful house and make the house even bigger. Who gets it, Who makes that decision, on what basis do they decide, who allows for the house to be made bigger, what means of appeal do the losers have, etc
If society is like Picard says, and they do not spend their lives in the quest for more things, than no one needs a large house. A large house is a status symbol, or a place to put ones stuff. Those that need large houses in the 24th century are those with large familes that require space for the children. Those type of homes are not near beaches.
Being a captain is a status symbol. Status clearly still exists
So let's say you have medium sized house and one day you're walking down the street and see that your neighbour has built an extension and put in a heated pool. You can do the same (cost free) but you're saying you wouldn't because people have evolved into angelic, none wanty type people who just smile when they see people who have cooler stuff than they do (but which they could have too at the touch of a button) two weeks later, your neighbour has built another storey and increased the size of his back yard. You're just watching this, happy with your two room house with no garden. At no point do you think, hmm, I could have that too
No. Large familes require a larger house to hold all those people. Familes in general require a community, which usually means multiple families in a relatively small area for schooling and to allow the kids to interact with others their own age. A typical suburb with tract housing would seem idea for that purpose, rather than an inner city enviroment with stacked apartments. The beach would seem like too small an area for such a community setting. Especially if humans are not so bound up with the idea of status and wealth. If one wants to go to the beach, a transporter or shuttle can get you there relatively quickly. I doubt anyplace on Earth is more than two hours away even by shuttle. The longest part of the trip would be getting to and from the terminals to get a shuttle or going to the local transporter hub.
As for this thread: I realize there's the occasional throwaway line of dialogue about how the Federation supposedly doesn't use money, but I don't believe it. They use credits - we've heard lines that support that, as well. So those are the lines I choose to believe!
If you want a house on the beach, you pay CREDITS to get that house. Doesn't seem too far-fetched.
As for this thread: I realize there's the occasional throwaway line of dialogue about how the Federation supposedly doesn't use money, but I don't believe it. They use credits - we've heard lines that support that, as well. So those are the lines I choose to believe!
If you want a house on the beach, you pay CREDITS to get that house. Doesn't seem too far-fetched.
Totally agree. Wealth and greed and privilege and class and status and material ambition are all still very much alive and well in the Federation. Picard lives in a bubble ( he has no real idea what's going on out there)
I'm amazed at those who try to argue that bar staff like being bar staff (it betters them you see)
You have to earn the beach, you have to work to better yourself. Your reward, the beach. No currency, sand.
I would like to be a bum and live on the beach in a portable house (24th century tent, 1 minute assembly) but I'm sure my lack of bettering myself will mean at some point my idyll will be interrupted by a Robo Cop hovering in my face and demanding, "CITIZEN. WHAT IS YOUR NAME."
Picard's first duty is to the truth.. whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth or beach house truth!
That scene where Picard was talking about the economy was the writers basically explaining it directly to the audience, with that unfrozen guy standing in for us who have no clue how it would work in reality.
How much of the Los Angeles area is suppose to be under water? Are their new beaches on the new California coast? Or did the desire to live on the beach die with Long Beach?
You have to earn the beach, you have to work to better yourself. Your reward, the beach. No currency, sand.
I would like to be a bum and live on the beach in a portable house (24th century tent, 1 minute assembly) but I'm sure my lack of bettering myself will mean at some point my idyll will be interrupted by a Robo Cop hovering in my face and demanding, "CITIZEN. WHAT IS YOUR NAME."
I would agree, kinda like politicians that are so out of touch with the minutia of daily life, that they don't even know the price of a gallon of milk!
If we are truly living in Star Trek's future then I'd rather holographic beachfront images (think Marty McFly's Scene Screen from BTTF2 on all the windows) than the actual beachfront. But yeah, I'd say if utopia means people can live wherever they want to, than not everyone wants to live near the beach. Heaps of them want to live in the mountains. Some want to live in urban centres. Others near ski slopes, etc etc or close to the laundromats. It would all work itself out. Read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Admittedly it's not about the beach and utopia and Star Trek but it's a great book.
Lots of people hate the coast... it's too cold/hot, maybe they fear tsunami, maybe they hate the smell of the ocean. Hey I grew up near the ocean and lemme tell ya - it aint all sea spray and fuckin' moon mist. There are rotten crabs and festering jellyfish and sea shit that comes rolling up. A feast for the nostrils but not all of it palatable.
"Sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere." - William Shakespeare
If we are truly living in Star Trek's future then I'd rather holographic beachfront images (think Marty McFly's Scene Screen from BTTF2 on all the windows) than the actual beachfront. But yeah, I'd say if utopia means people can live wherever they want to, than not everyone wants to live near the beach. Heaps of them want to live in the mountains. Some want to live in urban centres. Others near ski slopes, etc etc or close to the laundromats. It would all work itself out. Read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Admittedly it's not about the beach and utopia and Star Trek but it's a great book.
Lots of people hate the coast... it's too cold/hot, maybe they fear tsunami, maybe they hate the smell of the ocean. Hey I grew up near the ocean and lemme tell ya - it aint all sea spray and fuckin' moon mist. There are rotten crabs and festering jellyfish and sea shit that comes rolling up. A feast for the nostrils but not all of it palatable.
"Sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere." - William Shakespeare
Again, this isn't specifically about living by the beach. That was just an example of the wider point. You mention living in the mountains. OK, fine so who gets to live in the beautiful house in the mountains?
I don't know what the population is in the 24th century but I've seen nothing to suggest it has massively decreased. At current population expansion rates, the 24th century should be 20 billion plus (which is extremely generous) additionally we have the enormous influx of alien immigrants
There is no way in hell that everyone can live in those lovely mountains, those lakeside mansions, the penthouse overlooking the colosseum, those beautiful beach houses
Don't think it really matters because Star Trek deals in broad strokes and the focus of the show is Starfleet not Earth. It's not a blueprint for the future. More of an abstract painting, really.
Thats part of my point, I suppose. If there's not as much demand or prestige, then it's not as costly, whatever that maybe in the future. Some prefer the beach, some the lakes, some country, some desert, some big city. But part of it is cost, and cost can drive perceived availability. if other land is considered just as desirable, its value isnt as high.
30-40 years ago in Chicago, lake front property outside of downtown was seen as crime riddled neighborhoods. 15-20 years ago, developers purchased that cheap real estate, built expensive communities, and now lake front property is some of the most sought after, most expensive real estate in the city. Economics can manufacture prestige, very much.
Don't think it really matters because Star Trek deals in broad strokes and the focus of the show is Starfleet not Earth. It's not a blueprint for the future. More of an abstract painting, really.
I hear you, Nerys, but I like to think of Star Trek as a version
of a painting of the future, sort of like a pencil sketch or storyboard-type drawing of the final product.
If we are truly living in Star Trek's future then I'd rather holographic beachfront images (think Marty McFly's Scene Screen from BTTF2 on all the windows) than the actual beachfront. But yeah, I'd say if utopia means people can live wherever they want to, than not everyone wants to live near the beach. Heaps of them want to live in the mountains. Some want to live in urban centres. Others near ski slopes, etc etc or close to the laundromats. It would all work itself out. Read The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Admittedly it's not about the beach and utopia and Star Trek but it's a great book.
Lots of people hate the coast... it's too cold/hot, maybe they fear tsunami, maybe they hate the smell of the ocean. Hey I grew up near the ocean and lemme tell ya - it aint all sea spray and fuckin' moon mist. There are rotten crabs and festering jellyfish and sea shit that comes rolling up. A feast for the nostrils but not all of it palatable.
"Sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere." - William Shakespeare
Again, this isn't specifically about living by the beach. That was just an example of the wider point. You mention living in the mountains. OK, fine so who gets to live in the beautiful house in the mountains?
I don't know what the population is in the 24th century but I've seen nothing to suggest it has massively decreased. At current population expansion rates, the 24th century should be 20 billion plus (which is extremely generous) additionally we have the enormous influx of alien immigrants
There is no way in hell that everyone can live in those lovely mountains, those lakeside mansions, the penthouse overlooking the colosseum, those beautiful beach houses
I am hopeful that at that point, we will have figured out how to make our resources sustainable/renewable, and that we will make good use of the still-large amounts of undeveloped land. Many would choose enough diverse places on Earth to live, that no one place would be overrun, but the numbers of people in very overpopulated areas would have difficulty. Numerous cities and a few continents in the Southern Hemisphere have areas that are simply groaning with people that are barely surviving, much less having any kind of standard of living.
I do not know if we can extrapolate the following facts and statistics all the way to the 24th century, but this is as good as there is for now:
Here in the Arab world, not only are there areas that are still climbing into the 21st Century, but the statistic to pay attention to is that 70% of the world population of Arabs is under 30, and 20% of them are living below the poverty line. And that is just one of many examples of Peoples who are not living the high life.
On Earth, excluding Antarctica, overall population density is 50 people per km² (129.28 per sq. mile). a little (lot) disingenuous a stastistic, because 50% of Earth is uninhabitable by our standards today...Weather and Climate Controls, indeed!
Human migration has been shifting toward cities and urban centers, with the urban population jumping from 29% in 1950, to 50.5% in 2005. Hard to say if this pattern will continue into the 24th Century...
There is no way in hell that everyone can live in those lovely mountains, those lakeside mansions, the penthouse overlooking the colosseum, those beautiful beach houses
