Who are your favorite couples real/subtexted

[DarthTom]

Early Voyager made Janeway/Chakotay possible but they seem to kill it after 2 seasons. Was there ever a explanation by B&B why they dumped it ?

Likely it was dropped for realism in a command structure. Relationships with subordinates even in extraordinary circumstances is typically frowned upon.

In terms of the best 'couple,' in the Voyager series I really shocked that Paris and Torres didn't win this hands down. It was the most realistic and the actors did an excellent job of portraying realism in tension that often exists between a couple in real life.

 

[Cepstrum]

Early Voyager made Janeway/Chakotay possible but they seem to kill it after 2 seasons. Was there ever a explanation by B&B why they dumped it ?

Likely it was dropped for realism in a command structure. Relationships with subordinates even in extraordinary circumstances is typically frowned upon.

In terms of the best 'couple,' in the Voyager series I really shocked that Paris and Torres didn't win this hands down. It was the most realistic and the actors did an excellent job of portraying realism in tension that often exists between a couple in real life.

^^^

I completely agree. I know there are a lot of fans who wish something would've happened between Janeway and Chakotay, but they both seemed too professional (IMO) to let themselves get involved. A Captain and her XO together would be highly unusual/disruptive. What if they broke up with bad feelings? It's the epitome of a relationship with a subordinate.

And I concur about Paris/Torres. That was, IMO, one of the better parts of Voyager. I really liked how it took them so long, that they had so many fights (before finally moving beyond that), and that, at the beginning, you would not have expected those two to come together.

 

[exodus]

Early Voyager made Janeway/Chakotay possible but they seem to kill it after 2 seasons. Was there ever a explanation by B&B why they dumped it ?

Likely it was dropped for realism in a command structure. Relationships with subordinates even in extraordinary circumstances is typically frowned upon.

That and Mulgrew herself was dead set against it.
She explained that a captain in Janeway situation shouldn't be distracted by having a romantic relationship because love can have serious affects on judgement, much like was shown in DS9's "Change of Heart". The ep. in which Worf fails to commplete his mission and follow orders because he's more concerned about staying and caring for a wounded Dax. It caused Worf to get his 3rd offical repremand which eleminates his chances of ever becoming captain himself.

 

[DarthTom]

That and Mulgrew herself was dead set against it.
She explained that a captain in Janeway situation shouldn't be distracted by having a romantic relationship because love can have serious affects on judgement, much like was shown in DS9's "Change of Heart". The ep. in which Worf fails to commplete his mission and follow orders because he's more concerned about staying and caring for a wounded Dax. It caused Worf to get his 3rd offical repremand which eleminates his chances of ever becoming captain himself.

Mulgrew did the right thing IMHO because it would be sexist and misogynistic for the male producers of the show and the primarily male leadership at Paramount to cast the first female Starship captain succumbing to a onscreen relationship with a subordinate.

It would send the message that a woman just couldn't 'live without a man' whereas Picard was perfectly happy remaining a virtual life long bachelor.

In real life the current highest ranking female in the US Navy is Vice Admiral Ann E. Rondeau who is unmarried.

Ann Rondeau

 

[DarthTom]

And I concur about Paris/Torres. That was, IMO, one of the better parts of Voyager. I really liked how it took them so long, that they had so many fights (before finally moving beyond that), and that, at the beginning, you would not have expected those two to come together.

One of the best written episodes about Paris and Torres relationship IMHO was Drive where Tom wants to attend a race and Torres had plans with him on the holodeck that he forgot about. That's so 'real world,' for most people in relationships and with Seven's help Torres comes to the conclusion that putting her own feelings aside and helping Tom pursue his interests was best for them. Similarly, Tom makes it clear to Torres that she's the most important thing in his life. It takes tension, misunderstandings and make-ups for both of them to reach this conclusion.

That's called real life and real relationships.

It was well acted and well written and when both actors IMHO finally reach onscreen synergy that makes their relationship utterly believable.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That moment in Drive was spectacular.

I had forgotten they were "together" because the writers room forgot they were together. Their relationship was mentioned once maybe a twice a season up to that point. Later I found the bit sad, as it became evident that they only bothered to try and write a revelation because they thought knocking her up would make a pleasant back story and they couldn't do that if she was unwed.

And Darth Tom, I have seen plenty of relationships where the lady is in charge. It's a given that a relationship of equals is very rare but then it's also equal to the divorce rate, so it's more honest to say that a successful marriage of equals is rare, but that doesn't mean that the bloke has to be in charge or the gal has to make it easy for him on top IF he is.

Mark seemed like a doormat.

I read that book by Jeri Taylor that was wall to wall Mark and Janeway. Doormat.

 

[Brit]

Mulgrew did the right thing IMHO because it would be sexist and misogynistic for the male producers of the show and the primarily male leadership at Paramount to cast the first female Starship captain succumbing to a onscreen relationship with a subordinate.

It would send the message that a woman just couldn't 'live without a man' whereas Picard was perfectly happy remaining a virtual life long bachelor.

So you think the better message is “Women who choose to be in charge, have to give up all thoughts of relationships and family.” Men are never forced to make such choices. It is the absolute worse message you could send out to young women.

I’ll even question Picard’s happiness considering “The Inner Light” and some of the things he said in “Generations.” I have yet to meet the happy lifelong bachelor who has lived into old age, and very few women that don’t regret a decision to forgo children when it’s too late. While I am sure there are probably some out in the world, they have to be few and far between.

We already know from research that people in stable loving relationships are healthier, live longer and are less stressed.

You know they used to tell athletes to remain celibate because sex sapped your strength and made your performance poor, but when the scientists did studies they found out that exactly the opposite was true.

Brit

 

[crusher]

Mulgrew did the right thing IMHO because it would be sexist and misogynistic for the male producers of the show and the primarily male leadership at Paramount to cast the first female Starship captain succumbing to a onscreen relationship with a subordinate.

It would send the message that a woman just couldn't 'live without a man' whereas Picard was perfectly happy remaining a virtual life long bachelor.

So you think the better message is “Women who choose to be in charge, have to give up all thoughts of relationships and family.” Men are never forced to make such choices. It is the absolute worse message you could send out to young women.

Brit

But these are the writers and producers that gave the poor woman only two relationships over the time period. Where allowing her to have a loving relationship with someone like Chakotay might have allowed us to see an interesting part of both of their characters without Janeway giving anything away with regards to her Captaincy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Picard couldn't juggle a relationship with that redhead from stellarcartography and sending her on deadly missions so would janeway have had just as difficult a problem? What I don't get is why Jean-Luc broke up with her AND kicked her off the ship. Surely if he kicked her off the ship, they could continue their relationship, meanwhile if they broke it off she should have been able to keep her job on the flagship. Of course she would have been pissed off about being fired becuase he was acting like a girl?

Now if Janeway and Chuckles broke up? How many suicide missions would she send him on before he asks if she has some sort of problem with him now that they are bitter towards each other after the heddy and traumactic break up?

Yes, she should have had some one, but she was right in thinking that that ship was too small to risk having a failed realtionship(s) on since it's just a matter of one drowning in their own emotional waste.

Relationship aside becuase he's happily married, I always assumed that MECHANICALLY she would be there for Tuvok when he had his Ponn Farr, which would have cleared the cobwebs.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Clear the cobwebs?

Is that what Q was offering?

JANEWAY: Since you won't be getting in the bed, I wouldn't worry about it.
Q: Oh, Kathy, don't be such a prude. Admit it. It has been a while.
JANEWAY: And it's going to be a while longer. Now get out.

(Edited to add... I just found yet ANOTHER couple I neglected to put into the poll... Q/J)

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was definitely something going on between Q and Paris. The way she said "Helmboy" made me shiver with anticipation in just the right place.

(Why am I thinking of the time Samantha on Sex and the City had her pubic area shaved into a lightning bolt?)

 

[DarthTom]

We already know from research that people in stable loving relationships are healthier, live longer and are less stressed.

You know they used to tell athletes to remain celibate because sex sapped your strength and made your performance poor, but when the scientists did studies they found out that exactly the opposite was true.

Brit

False analogy IMHO. Starfleet was a military organization and presumably follows most military rules regarding commander and subordinate relationships.

 

[Cepstrum]

And I concur about Paris/Torres. That was, IMO, one of the better parts of Voyager. I really liked how it took them so long, that they had so many fights (before finally moving beyond that), and that, at the beginning, you would not have expected those two to come together.

One of the best written episodes about Paris and Torres relationship IMHO was Drive where Tom wants to attend a race and Torres had plans with him on the holodeck that he forgot about. That's so 'real world,' for most people in relationships and with Seven's help Torres comes to the conclusion that putting her own feelings aside and helping Tom pursue his interests was best for them. Similarly, Tom makes it clear to Torres that she's the most important thing in his life. It takes tension, misunderstandings and make-ups for both of them to reach this conclusion.

That's called real life and real relationships.

It was well acted and well written and when both actors IMHO finally reach onscreen synergy that makes their relationship utterly believable.

^^^
I agree completely. I know it's not an especially well-regarded episode, but Drive is one of my favorites.

As a bonus, we got Harry to show some maturity and not be so gullible with Irina. He toughened up and help save the day.

Edit: actually, not just Harry, but Tom and B'Elanna both grew quite a bit. Who'd have thought Tom would give up while he's winning a race for her? And who'd have thought B'Elanna would put aside her anger and bitterness to let Tom enjoy himself?

At the beginning of VOY, those two both looked out for #1 (while in the DQ — Torres did care about her Maquis comrades back in the AQ).


But initially, if there were a poll among the officers on Voyager, those two would have come in first and second as "least popular/least friendly" (I'm discounting crewman such as Suder and Harren, and "ineligible" people such as Tuvok, Vorik, and Seven. And those two did each have one friend each: Harry and Chakotay. But you know what I mean: they were not making friends with anyone else.)

 

[kimc]

Starfleet was a military organization and presumably follows most military rules regarding commander and subordinate relationships.

Janeway did make the comment in Elogium that Starfleet didn't like to interfere with the personal lives of its members. From that we can assume that like everything else military organizations have evolved between then and now.

That being said while I'm a JCer I believe onscreen couples tend to lose their chemistry if put together too soon (Sam/Diane in Cheers, etc). I would have liked to have seen something like the original Workforce idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra which would have provided a nice character arc for the two thru the end of the series as they dealt with the repercussions of their experience and decided whether or not it made sense to continue.

 

[Cepstrum]

We already know from research that people in stable loving relationships are healthier, live longer and are less stressed.

You know they used to tell athletes to remain celibate because sex sapped your strength and made your performance poor, but when the scientists did studies they found out that exactly the opposite was true.

Brit

False analogy IMHO. Starfleet was a military organization and presumably follows most military rules regarding commander and subordinate relationships.

I thought Starfleet allowed but discouraged relationships. Right?

But I think that study is irrelevant. Even if the methodology were sound, the results most definitely concluded that on average people in relationships perform better. There are two problems: there's no such thing as an "average" person (Janeway might be someone who performs much better while single), and the study likely took a random sampling of people. Obviously people who are in a navy/Starfleet represent a different subset of the population. That's even more significant for those who choose command positions such as a ship captain.

If there were a study that showed an overwhelming majority of ship captains performed better when married (and if the variance of the results were low), then it'd be more useful.

It may very well be true that most people perform better while they're married, but "most people" includes everyone from athletes, to janitors, to teachers, to servers, to captains (if the sample is truly random and sufficiently large). But so few people are cut out or even want to command a ship that I suspect a separate study is indicated for them.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

like the original Workforce idea where Chakotay was Janeway's lover on Quarra which would have provided a nice character arc for the two thru the end of the series as they dealt with the repercussions of their experience and decided whether or not it made sense to continue.

Now that would have been interesting.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I understand why it would have been unprofessional for Chakotay and Janeway to get romantic while on board Voyager. That being said, I always felt like ... almost like there was this unspoken agreement between them, that when they got back home and were no longer serving on the same ship together, they could pursue a relationship. I'm not saying the show had to end with Chakotay planting a big ol' kiss on Janeway (though that might have been nice), but I would have liked something that implied they were going to explore their suppressed attraction for each other as the series ended. I thought his pairing with Seven was ridiculous, especially given that she was an emotional child or teenager at best. J/C had a fantastic chemistry and deep friendship... I mean, my god, when they were stuck on that planet together? The neck massage? They were about two seconds away from doing it! UST, people. UST.

 

[Guy Gardener]

HE was about 2 seconds away from doing her, Kathy however still had a good 6 months left in her chastity reserves. Kathryn Janeway stores celibacy like a Camel stores water in her humps. Oh? you thought those were boobies creating curvature under the breast of her uniform?

No.

Not at all.

 

[Brit]

We already know from research that people in stable loving relationships are healthier, live longer and are less stressed.

You know they used to tell athletes to remain celibate because sex sapped your strength and made your performance poor, but when the scientists did studies they found out that exactly the opposite was true.

Brit

False analogy IMHO. Starfleet was a military organization and presumably follows most military rules regarding commander and subordinate relationships.

How is that? You think military rules are not subject to change when they find that their old rules are rather useless. Military rules have to change to fit times. Don't make the mistake of thinking Starfleet is the Navy. That is the Apples and Oranges you are trying to compare to each other.

You can't freeze any organization military or not and say this is the rules forever.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

Captain Riker is married to one of his officers.

If it was an issue, they wouldn't be allowed to serve together, and anyway how practical would it be to split up every married couple especially on deep space missions?

If the Anti-time time line from All Good things is any clue to how things might eventuate, then Picard and Bev are probably at least hooking up now and then by the point of Nemesis if there are truly wedding bells in their future.

Then of course when that Vulcan is boiling on the transporter pad near the beginning of Star trek The motion Picture, kirk didn't even notice Rand, a woman he once had such great over whelming feelings for lust toward that he broke down in front of his crew and made up lyrics for a country song about how he ached for her.

Passion is fleeting. Kirks passion quadruply so.