Which was lamer: a second death star or the ewoks?

[DWF]

Well considering what a huge cliffhanger it was at the end of ESB for Han to be captured and imprisoned in carbonite, and all the questions and theories that had been building up in fans' minds in the intervening years, I can understand why Lucas felt he needed to make his rescue in ROTJ a pretty big and involved process.

After all that, to have Luke simply storm into the palace and yank out Han in the first 15 minutes would have felt seriously anticlimactic, I think.

Although that said, I do 40 minutes is about as long as that section really needed to be. 50 was definitely too long.

At least Luke storming in and yanking Han out would have made sense, as opposed to whatever the hell the plan they executed was. And if it had been a brutal infiltration, with him not just temporarily choking but straight-up slicing and dicing thugs on his way, the Emperor's exhortations for him to embrace the Dark Side might have been even more tempting...

Again, though, the big thing is Jabba's main story role in the OT was giving Han a reason not to stick around with the Rebels, what with the bounty on his head and the hunters after him. Once he's killed, he has zero bearing on the actual galactic plot at hand.

The caper to save Han used all the characters acting as team and it gave Luke his first real outing as a Jedi. Han could've paid off Jabba after ANH for that matter, there's real for Han not to have.

 

[Captain_Amasov]

Well considering what a huge cliffhanger it was at the end of ESB for Han to be captured and imprisoned in carbonite, and all the questions and theories that had been building up in fans' minds in the intervening years, I can understand why Lucas felt he needed to make his rescue in ROTJ a pretty big and involved process.

After all that, to have Luke simply storm into the palace and yank out Han in the first 15 minutes would have felt seriously anticlimactic, I think.

Although that said, I do 40 minutes is about as long as that section really needed to be. 50 was definitely too long.

At least Luke storming in and yanking Han out would have made sense, as opposed to whatever the hell the plan they executed was. And if it had been a brutal infiltration, with him not just temporarily choking but straight-up slicing and dicing thugs on his way, the Emperor's exhortations for him to embrace the Dark Side might have been even more tempting...

Again, though, the big thing is Jabba's main story role in the OT was giving Han a reason not to stick around with the Rebels, what with the bounty on his head and the hunters after him. Once he's killed, he has zero bearing on the actual galactic plot at hand.

It's also possible that he had a vision from the Force where he was standing on that platform over the Sarlacc without his Lightsaber, and then had to figure out a plan that would get him into that position. We often hear how Jedi and Sith are guided by the living Force and this would explain the rather uneasy way this plan plans out.

 

[Marsden]

Well considering what a huge cliffhanger it was at the end of ESB for Han to be captured and imprisoned in carbonite, and all the questions and theories that had been building up in fans' minds in the intervening years, I can understand why Lucas felt he needed to make his rescue in ROTJ a pretty big and involved process.

After all that, to have Luke simply storm into the palace and yank out Han in the first 15 minutes would have felt seriously anticlimactic, I think.

Although that said, I do 40 minutes is about as long as that section really needed to be. 50 was definitely too long.

At least Luke storming in and yanking Han out would have made sense, as opposed to whatever the hell the plan they executed was. And if it had been a brutal infiltration, with him not just temporarily choking but straight-up slicing and dicing thugs on his way, the Emperor's exhortations for him to embrace the Dark Side might have been even more tempting...

Again, though, the big thing is Jabba's main story role in the OT was giving Han a reason not to stick around with the Rebels, what with the bounty on his head and the hunters after him. Once he's killed, he has zero bearing on the actual galactic plot at hand.

What was Han loading at the end of the first movie? I always assumed it was his payment that he was going to use to repay Jabba. If that was case, then why would Jabba even want him anymore? He couldn't find time in 3 years to pay him off? Maybe it was too good of a plot point to let slip and Lucas just forgot that.

 

[Silvercrest]

I always thought that was his money.

But I figured that Han probably let himself get distracted by Rebel affairs after Yavin. By the time he had a reasonable chance to go pay Jabba, it was too late and he had a price on his head. All it would take was a delay of a couple of months.

 

[Gaith]

^ That, and I don't buy the canon line that there's a three-year gap between ANH and ESB. I give it six to nine months.

It's also possible that he had a vision from the Force where he was standing on that platform over the Sarlacc without his Lightsaber, and then had to figure out a plan that would get him into that position. We often hear how Jedi and Sith are guided by the living Force and this would explain the rather uneasy way this plan plans out.

That's an impressive bit of fan theorizing, but even if one accepted it, it wouldn't make the Tatooine segment of the movie any less dull. Jabba is a marvelous character design and a wonderful practical effect, but not an interesting character.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I always thought that was his money.

It was--the reward for rescuing Leia.

But I figured that Han probably let himself get distracted by Rebel affairs after Yavin. By the time he had a reasonable chance to go pay Jabba, it was too late and he had a price on his head. All it would take was a delay of a couple of months.

That's the assumption; he was caught up in helping his new friends, that he thought he had time. Or maybe he thought hanging around a fugitive army would offer protection. Either way, he knew the risks as early as the Greedo confrontation, and had to expect bounty hunters to come after him even before Han's TESB reference to the off-screen bounty hunter incident.

 

[Marsden]

I actually kind of assumed that when he decided to help out he learned that that much money might be enough to keep the fighters fueled or some other need so he gave it back.

I really don't think that all of those rebel troops are a volunteer force, as in not paid in some way at all. And things like food and fuel aren't free but so much of the Star Wars universe doesn't really hold up to that kind of scrutiny, so maybe that's why Lucas didn't care if Ewoks destroyed the Empire. Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed. Or why over 50 guys with guns can't stop one guy with a sword.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed.

To refresh your memory, the A-wing only took out the bridge, after other craft had just taken out the bridge deflector shields. Taking out the bridge only caused the Super Star Destroyer to fly out of control. It could have survived, if only it hadn't then flown right into the surface of the Death Star II. Flying into the surface of the DSII is what destroyed it.

 

[JD]

Earlier in the thread we were discussing timeline of the Death Stars being built, and in the now non-canon post ANH comic written by Brian Wood we see Vader already hanging out on a partially built Death Star II just a few months after the first one was destroyed. So it looks like in this version they were already starting work on the DSII while the first one was being built, or started very soon after.

 

[Marsden]

Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed.

To refresh your memory, the A-wing only took out the bridge, after other craft had just taken out the bridge deflector shields. Taking out the bridge only caused the Super Star Destroyer to fly out of control. It could have survived, if only it hadn't then flown right into the surface of the Death Star II. Flying into the surface of the DSII is what destroyed it.

Yes, and spaceships always fall down in space.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed.

To refresh your memory, the A-wing only took out the bridge, after other craft had just taken out the bridge deflector shields. Taking out the bridge only caused the Super Star Destroyer to fly out of control. It could have survived, if only it hadn't then flown right into the surface of the Death Star II. Flying into the surface of the DSII is what destroyed it.

Yes, and spaceships always fall down in space.

Not in Star Wars, and that has nothing to do with this, anyway.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I actually kind of assumed that when he decided to help out he learned that that much money might be enough to keep the fighters fueled or some other need so he gave it back.

But the Jabba problem would still hang over his head. With Han & Chewbacca helping the Rebellion--saving its leadership, one would think they would insist on the pirates settling their debt. Its not as though the Rebel Alliance did not have well stocked allies (as we would see in ROTJ with the Mon Calamari, et al.).

And things like food and fuel aren't free but so much of the Star Wars universe doesn't really hold up to that kind of scrutiny, so maybe that's why Lucas didn't care if Ewoks destroyed the Empire. Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed. Or why over 50 guys with guns can't stop one guy with a sword.

I think you can argue the A-Wing or Ewok points, but if you're referring to the Luke's Sail Barge fight, remember, he's not some ordinary person. Essentially, he's become a "magical" being--and taught to defend himself with powers others--as Leia would put it--never understand. If it was Lando or Han running around, that would not hold up at all, but Luke was another level.

 

[eyeresist]

Boba Fett's death was so very senseless and a throw away scene.

Fett was basically a nonentity in the movies. It was only in the EU that he was a big deal.

 

[Marsden]

I think you can argue the A-Wing or Ewok points, but if you're referring to the Luke's Sail Barge fight, remember, he's not some ordinary person. Essentially, he's become a "magical" being--and taught to defend himself with powers others--as Leia would put it--never understand. If it was Lando or Han running around, that would not hold up at all, but Luke was another level.

You are right, I think that's what we are supposed to get from it, Luke is a Jedi and they are that dangerous.

However, my impression, and yes I'm not telling anyone else what to think, but my own impression was not that he was that good, but that they were so inept they couldn't do anything right. It just seemed very poorly done. I was never impressed at how good Luke was supposed to be. These guys were worse than the Stormtroopers! I just never thought it was a credible threat and really just drawing it out for an action set piece complete with forced humor that really didn't impress me in the least.

 

[eyeresist]

Having someone with a sword face off multiple opponents with guns is never very convincing, regardless of how "cool" it is supposed to be. But that's thing with Jedis in SW, you have to buy into their inherent superiority or the whole thing falls apart.

 

[MacLeod]

Or why an 20 ft Awing crashes into a 6 mile long Star Destroyer and this causes it to be destroyed.

To refresh your memory, the A-wing only took out the bridge, after other craft had just taken out the bridge deflector shields. Taking out the bridge only caused the Super Star Destroyer to fly out of control. It could have survived, if only it hadn't then flown right into the surface of the Death Star II. Flying into the surface of the DSII is what destroyed it.

Yes, and spaceships always fall down in space.

My own explanation for that is it was caught in the gravity well generated by the Death Star. A stretch I know.

 

[Beagleman]

My own explanation for that is it was caught in the gravity well generated by the Death Star. A stretch I know.

Works for me...

 

[CorporalCaptain]

To refresh your memory, the A-wing only took out the bridge, after other craft had just taken out the bridge deflector shields. Taking out the bridge only caused the Super Star Destroyer to fly out of control. It could have survived, if only it hadn't then flown right into the surface of the Death Star II. Flying into the surface of the DSII is what destroyed it.

Yes, and spaceships always fall down in space.

My own explanation for that is it was caught in the gravity well generated by the Death Star. A stretch I know.

It could have simply randomly turned into it, but getting caught in the gravitational field is not the worst possible stretch.

Maybe the station's magnetic field turned the ship (recall SW77, Red Leader: "We're bouncing through their magnetic field"; and some Imperial officer: "We are opening the magnetic field"), or some combination of fields deflected it.