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Which races naturally evolved?

Crewman47

Commodore
Newbie
By that I mean what races exist in this galaxy through non-interference from advanced ancient races?

If the Ancient aliens and the Preservers had never visted this Galaxy and seeded most of the planets that gave us Humans, etc then what races would we have had dominating the Galaxy and would Humans still evolve naturally on Earth or would something else evolve on it, like the Dinosaurs?
 
I'd argue the ancient humanoids perverted all evolution, leaving absolutely nothing to change.

Or more probably, they left everything to change up till a certain point - and at that point, the "secret orders" within the genome would be triggered, taking control of whatever lifeform was available, and then perverting it into an intelligent humanoid. If it hadn't been small tree-climbing mammals on Earth, it could have been dinosaurs (and, as per VOY "Distant Origin", actually once was!), or frogs, or antelopes, or possibly mollusks or spiders.

So every planet seeded with the basics of life those billions of years ago would ultimately evolve a whole ecosystem, and keep on evolving - but every intelligent humanoid to emerge would be the result of Ancient intervention. Random factors might result in some nonhumanoid intelligences as a side product, though. But usually the Ancient "orders" would take effect before there was time for the natural evolution of intelligence, and the emergence of an Ancient-dictated intelligence would generally preclude the emerge of further intelligences on that planet.

This would neatly explain why basically all the Trek intelligences we have observed have been either humanoid, or then highly advanced posthumanoid (including machine intellects created by humanoids), or then something that doesn't live on planets.

Timo Saloniemi
 
"The Chase" was stupid.

Care to justify that statement, it was nice that Moore decided to bring back the TOS Preservers and give SOME kind of explanation for the humanoid aliens (and potential origin of the Founders).
 
well if u look at the enterprise's episode fortunate son,the Nausicaans were smart but by the 24th century they enevolved, they were stupid and dumb and looked completly differnt to their 22nd century counterparts.
 
I'm with Timo. The Preservers come off as a bunch of selfish nuts with a God complex.

"Our race has run it's course, so let's make sure that as many other potential races as possible are forced into our mold.."
 
Sorry to pimp my work...but I wrote an essay on this very subject. It was geared towards explaining Trek hybrids--but also addresses this issue:

http://www.adastrafanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=267

Ah, I did read that, I meant to PM you that I liked it. :)

I disagree with its ultimate conclusions, except the genetic engineering bit, but I liked it, particularly the mechanism by which the Progenitors enforced their vision of the way intelligent life should arise. Nevertheless, I still say Cardassians and Bajorans are the same genus with a much closer common ancestor

Of course, I also say the Prophets are the Bajorans from the future. Which would make them Cardassians from the future. This is why they didn't do anything about the occupation.
 
I just go by the canon explanation of the Prophets: They are aliens whose existence is perpendicular to ours. We exist in space and are affected by the flow of time, but the Prophets exist within time itself and can manipulate it with ease while not noticing the space around them (much like we cannot "see" time).
 
Sorry to pimp my work...but I wrote an essay on this very subject. It was geared towards explaining Trek hybrids--but also addresses this issue:

http://www.adastrafanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=267

Ah, I did read that, I meant to PM you that I liked it. :)

I disagree with its ultimate conclusions, except the genetic engineering bit, but I liked it, particularly the mechanism by which the Progenitors enforced their vision of the way intelligent life should arise. Nevertheless, I still say Cardassians and Bajorans are the same genus with a much closer common ancestor

Of course, I also say the Prophets are the Bajorans from the future. Which would make them Cardassians from the future. This is why they didn't do anything about the occupation.

That's a really interesting idea. The more I think about it the more I like it. Very nice.
 
Really? I thought it was a bit mad, but it just occurred to me. They keep talking about being of Bajor, and seem to care about Bajor, and I've always wondered what that meant.

Even if they were from Bajor, why care about the people who evolved on it afterward? I can ultimately trace my ancestry to the coastal shallows, but I don't care overmuch what happens to what's evolved there in the four billion years since, other than that they're often delicious.:devil: But if I knew that shrimp was going to be me in a few million (or even few hundred, if it's an artificially generated trascendence) years, maybe I wouldn't eat him.
 
Sorry to pimp my work...but I wrote an essay on this very subject. It was geared towards explaining Trek hybrids--but also addresses this issue:

http://www.adastrafanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=267

Ah, I did read that, I meant to PM you that I liked it. :)

I disagree with its ultimate conclusions, except the genetic engineering bit, but I liked it, particularly the mechanism by which the Progenitors enforced their vision of the way intelligent life should arise. Nevertheless, I still say Cardassians and Bajorans are the same genus with a much closer common ancestor

Thanks for reading. :)

I know that I see Cardassians and Bajorans as much more divergent from each other than you do, but I'm glad I could get you thinking.
 
...decided to bring back the TOS Preservers

But the episode never mentions the Preservers by name. And none of the facts match the TOS culture: the humanoids of "The Chase" are not from the past few centuries but from billions upon billions of years ago, they aren't transplanting species but seeding them, they show no penchant for preserving cultures but rather for promoting diversity within limits, and they show no sign of taking care of what they have sown beyond leaving them a riddle or two to solve.

If there ever were two Trek cultures (of which one or both were unseen) that could be reasonably assumed to be utterly unrelated, the Preservers and the "The Chase" humanoids are them...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Moore said that they were meant to be the Preservers, and that a species that old would have evolved to the point they could easily make Earth copies for the transplanted humans like the Preservers in TOS made Earth copies (or at least one for the Native Americans).
 
Hell, they could make copies of the transplanted humans easily enough if they had five billion years of experience!

The connection just doesn't fit the story in any logical or dramatic manner. The folks in "The Chase" left a memorial of themselves - they must have "moved on" by now, whether one takes that as an euphemism or something more interesting. The Preservers were still very much active.

As regards "Paradise Syndrome", Spock points out that the planet is almost completely dissimilar to Earth. That is why our heroes decide the Earthfolks there must be transplanted rather than locally evolved; supposedly, the planet thus is even less similar to Earth than the pseudo-Rome or the pseudo-Germany or the other pseudo-whatevers were...

Timo Saloniemi
 
Well, in novels it's stated that the Preservers made all those pseudo-worlds. Given how long and powerful the Progenitors must be I'd assume that if anyone could make all those copies it would be them.

And "The Chase" also gives a potential origin for the Founders since the Progenitor is the same actress who played the Female Founder leader.
 
Frankly, I'm relieved that the writer intent failed to carry through in "The Chase". The Trek universe is already too small as it is - and the novelverse is even smaller. We have plenty of alternate candidates for terraformers, such as Sargon's people who operated much more recently than the "The Chase" protohumanoids yet still much earlier than the Preservers. Indeed, if the protohumanoids established the standards of future life, then basically every starfaring culture that ever existed would have wanted to modify its planets to the same format, that is, Class M. And many of those probably succeeded.

If there's a connection to the Founders, I hope it rests on something more solid than the reuse of an actor. Otherwise, humans and Cardassians would be intimately related, too...

Timo Saloniemi
 
What I meant was that the Founders may be one of the earlier races to evolve due to the Progenitor seeding, since they said they used to be solids but evolved into the Great Link.

Also, if we do go by reused actors then that means the Klingons are intimately related to the Founders (Martok's actor being a Changling and Martok) and there being quite the relationship between humans Cardassians and Romulans (as Marc Alaimo played all three).
 
Sorry to pimp my work...but I wrote an essay on this very subject. It was geared towards explaining Trek hybrids--but also addresses this issue:

http://www.adastrafanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=267

I very much liked your perspective on the subject of “humanoid” development as well as cross-species breeding and hybrids. It makes sense both biologically and "in universe". A retrovirus which could affect different species at a later stage in development and guide them towards a more “humanoid” evolution would make a lot more sense than tinkering with the original genetic code, as an adaptation which would be extremely advantageous given one set of circumstances could be extremely maladaptive given the opposite circumstances. Hardly one size fits all.

However, I must agree with Myasishchev on the subject of the Bajorans and the Cardassians sharing a genus. If we look at the different hybrids throughout Star Trek you can notice that for the majority of the cases it is reasonable to assume that the babies were expected and even planned. Certainly Spock, Deanna, B'Elanna, Naomi Wildman, Linnis Paris etc… were well loved individuals (even if Sarek denied it on occasion) and there is no reason to assume that Amanda Grayson, Lwaxana, Miral, Samantha Wildman, or even Kes weren’t popping ovarian resequencing enzymes (ORE) like crazy in order to be able to conceive their hybrid babies. Even in the case of Ba’el, Tokath and Gi’ral seemed to be in a happy, loving relationship and there is no reason to doubt that she was conceived with anything less than full participation of her parents.

As far as I am able to tell there were only five cases of hybrids being conceived where we were led to believe that they were unwanted or unexpected: Alexander, Miral Paris, Sela, Tora Ziyal, and Mika’s baby (girl from the Pagh Wraith’s Cult). The cases of Alexander and Miral Paris are almost identical and easily explained. In both cases the mother is half-human and half-Klingon while the father is a full-blooded member of the species, Klingon in the case of Worf and human in the case of Tom. That makes the respective offspring 75% of a specific species. Were one to assume that both B’Elanna’s and K'Ehleyr’s mothers underwent ORE therapy to conceive then it is not illogical to assume that the offspring’s own ovaries would produce altered oocytes which would be more amenable to hybridizing with a member of either of the original species, something which both Worf and Tom obligingly provide.

Now, as far as Sela is concerned, although there is no dialog to indicate this, it is not unreasonable to assume that she was not in fact wanted by Tasha Yar. However, once again we have no indication that she did not undergo extensive ORE therapy at the behest of the Romulan for whom she agreed to become consort. The type of person which would force a vanquished enemy to become their consort is also exactly the type of person who would force this consort to bear them a child, be it as an exercise in power or simply out of an honest desire to see his seed spread. This is not unprecedented, and has recently been seen in the Balkans where captured girls were impregnated and not allowed to terminate their pregnancies so as to force them to bear a new generation of their conqueror’s offspring. This gives a whole new and dark dimension to the character of Sela.

In the case of Tora Ziyal and Mika’s baby, however, Dukat is clearly taken by surprise by the conception of the children and although we have no indication as to the reaction of Tora Naprem, Mika clearly appeared to be distressed by the development. It would seem that in these two cases there was no ORE therapy and they were naturally conceived. It is possible that Dukat was lying and that he had surreptitiously been administering ORE’s to both Naprem and Mika, but then what would be the use of acting so surprised when there was no real gain to be had. The argument could be made that it was in Tora Naprem’s best interest to conceive a child with Dukat and so cement her position by his side, so it is not ridiculous to think that she might have been receiving ORE therapy behind Dukat’s back, but without more back story we really cannot venture a guess. However, in Mika’s case it was clearly not in her best interest (personal or spiritual) to conceive and there is no reason to assume that she was undergoing ORE therapy. Although the point can be made that she was the Bajoran equivalent of a Devil Worshipper so her decision-making capacity might have been suspect. Now, assuming that all protestations of surprise were true, then in both cases there was a spontaneous Cardassian/Bajoran cross breeding with no external intervention or ORE therapy. This is characteristic of breeding within the same species or at least the same genus and so lends credence to Myasishchev’s position. Given that only in cases of Cardassian/Bajoran breeding do we have clear evidence that this did occur it is tempting to assume that this is in fact the case.

Well I’m sure that that is way more thought than the producers put into it as they simply wanted advance the storylines but meh……
 
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