Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

[Captrek]

I readily agree that without the UE, my position could be considered untenable. But it makes a huge difference.

Let me get this straight. If we’re having this conversation before the establishment of the UE, your sovereignty rules are untenable. We must evaluate the situation without that untenable standard, and without it we can find that the Omegans are sovereign? And they lose their sovereignty when UE is established?

What if USA and PROC are united under the rule of the Augments, reestablished as separate nations after the overthrow of the Augments, and then reunited again under United Earth? Does Omega keep bouncing back and forth between sovereign and not?

In the Spaniards' case, they would likeliest, I think, assumed to be citizens of Spain, although they may be able to claim Mexican citizneship or American citizenship. Their island would probably be Spanish as well, although Mexican is a strong possibility; I don't think it would be American, as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, I believe, specifically ceded only North American holdings.

I think you’re being inconsistent here. You have maintained that the descendants of Britons who leave colonial New York for uncharted lands become American when, as a result of the Revolutionary War, New York ceases to be British and becomes American. Why do New York and California have different rules?

I really think the main problem is that this is a problem that no court today could face. To frame the issue thusly: to what extent does the political unification of the human race affect human beings born prior to such unification and in a location unreachable by any then-extant government's sovereignty.

Obviously this has never been adjudicated IRL, so you and I (and anybody else who cares to chime in, but it looks like just the two of us) will have to do the adjudication based on logic and the Roddenberrian values on which TOS is based.

I think Roddenberry would have envisioned UE as the political unification of Earth rather than the political unification of the human race. The idea that different people are subject to different laws based on their race would have been horrific to Roddenberry and contrary to the ideals of the UFP. It also creates confusion with regard to people whose ancestry is partly but not entirely human — does the one-drop rule apply?

 

[KirkPicard]

The Mark of Gideon is another. Sure, do an episode dealing with the problems of overpopulation, but taking it so far that people literally only have room to all stand together in a giant crowd is just absurd. Add to that the Gideonites' overly convoluted plan with the duplicate Enterprise and the whole thing just falls apart.

And they reject contraception because of their great love for life, so they figure the better way to deal with excessive birth rates is to introduce a lethal plague into the population.

From Spock spouting off transporter coordinates rather than transmitting them electronically to an exacting replica of the entire Enterprise craft simply defies plausibility. I always picture this image, only with masses of bodies surrounding the ship.

 

[Captrek]

Hey, one thing I do like about your rule: It could make for a pretty good Star Trek story.

PRESERVERS: People of Earth: We are the Preservers. Your distant and long-forgotten ancestors were political fugitives from our civilization. We hold therefore that you are subject to our authority. Now, the first thing we’ll need is an accounting of all you’ve been accumulating for us. This form will provide guidelines for a full census of the population, with emphasis on productivity and economic forecasts.

EARTH PRESIDENT: Attorney General Myasischev, what do you think of that? Is their claim to authority legitimate?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps the Gideonites didn't literally build an exact duplicate of the ship, but only used a sort of holodeck to create it?

The room with the holodeck would of course have to have a window, because we see a crowd looking in. But there's no reason to take it literally. Many races have holodeck technology; what's one more?

 

[Myasishchev]

I readily agree that without the UE, my position could be considered untenable. But it makes a huge difference.

Let me get this straight. If we’re having this conversation before the establishment of the UE, your sovereignty rules are untenable. We must evaluate the situation without that untenable standard, and without it we can find that the Omegans are sovereign? And they lose their sovereignty when UE is established?

What if USA and PROC are united under the rule of the Augments, reestablished as separate nations after the overthrow of the Augments, and then reunited again under United Earth? Does Omega keep bouncing back and forth between sovereign and not?

I dunno. I may come back to this, as it's a good argument. Although there would be a difference, I think, between an Augment-led conquest of all nations and the UE's breakdown of the very concept of nationality.

In the Spaniards' case, they would likeliest, I think, assumed to be citizens of Spain, although they may be able to claim Mexican citizneship or American citizenship. Their island would probably be Spanish as well, although Mexican is a strong possibility; I don't think it would be American, as the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, I believe, specifically ceded only North American holdings.

I think you’re being inconsistent here. You have maintained that the descendants of Britons who leave colonial New York for uncharted lands become American when, as a result of the Revolutionary War, New York ceases to be British and becomes American. Why do New York and California have different rules?

Because NY and CA have different histories. Colonial subjects became NY citizens, who became US citizens by operation of law (regardless of where they were). I do not know if Spanish citizens of San Diego became Mexican citizens in the same fashion; but no Mexican citizen outside the Mexican cession was offered American citizenship via the treaty. As domiciled on Island X, these Spaniards or perhaps Mexicans could not claim the benefits of American citizenship under that treaty.

I really think the main problem is that this is a problem that no court today could face. To frame the issue thusly: to what extent does the political unification of the human race affect human beings born prior to such unification and in a location unreachable by any then-extant government's sovereignty.

Obviously this has never been adjudicated IRL, so you and I (and anybody else who cares to chime in, but it looks like just the two of us) will have to do the adjudication based on logic and the Roddenberrian values on which TOS is based.

I think Roddenberry would have envisioned UE as the political unification of Earth rather than the political unification of the human race. The idea that different people are subject to different laws based on their race would have been horrific to Roddenberry and contrary to the ideals of the UFP.

They actually are, though. Is duelling permitted for all Federation citizens, or just Vulcans? Is Neelix a child predator? As much as species in Trek are a metaphor for races on Earth, the metaphor breaks down entirely when you get into practical questions like this. I reckon equal protection is a weird area in UFP constitutional law.

 

[Captrek]

They actually are, though. Is duelling permitted for all Federation citizens, or just Vulcans?

The UFP is, as its name suggests, a federal system. Some laws exist at the federal level, and some at the planetary level. (I get the impression that the UFP is a little less centralized than today’s USA, and UFP citizens are also citizens of their planets. Admittedly, I don’t have immediate canonical support for that.)

If Spock had fought and killed Stonn at his kal-if-fee, it would have been a matter between Vulcan citizens on Vulcan soil and probably governed by Vulcan law. As the duel is legal under Vulcan law, no crime would have been committed.

On the other hand, if Spock had killed Kirk, he might have been subject to charges on Earth for the murder of an Earth citizen; moreover, the fact that Kirk is a Starfleet officer might make it a federal crime. (Those are both maybes. I’m not really sure of either of them.)

Is Neelix a child predator?

I doubt Neelix and Kes’s relationship would be subject to UFP law at all, considering that neither of them ever set foot on a UFP world or in space claimed by the UFP or a UFP member, but for the sake of discussion let’s pretend Talax and Ocampa are UFP members.

Age of consent is probably a matter of planetary law rather than federal law. Any laws regarding age of consent, especially if they’re at the federal level, are presumably defined in terms of the physical and mental maturity of the participants rather than chronological age, because no chronological age test would be meaningful across the different species in the Federation. Similarly, abortion laws (assuming they still have such a thing in the 23rd century) would have to be defined in terms of the viability of the fetus rather than the number of weeks into the pregnancy, due to the widely varying gestation periods between various species. I believe that would be consistent with the principle of equal protection.

 

[scotpens]

Perhaps the Gideonites didn't literally build an exact duplicate of the ship, but only used a sort of holodeck to create it?

A virtual re-creation of the Enterprise so perfect in every detail that it could fool Captain Kirk? A man who knows every deck and level, every compartment, every nook and cranny, every sound and vibration of his ship? Especially when there's no indication that any Gideonite has ever been aboard any Connie-class starship, let alone the Enterprise.

 

[Gary7]

Which episode most breaks your suspension of disbelief?

Probably "Plato's Stepchildren" and "...And the Children Shall Lead", which feature some of the most laughable and unconvincing excuses for malevolent aliens I've ever seen.

Also, the Plato freaks do some things that I can't imagine aliens ever wanting to do to humans. You're going to punish humans by making them prance, walk around on all fours, and kiss? Two questions: "Why?" and "Who Cares?"

These episodes completely broke my suspension of disbelief, and while they were at it, they also broke my heart and crushed my soul. Worst episodes ever.

You have to look at Plato's Stepchildren as a farce. That's the only way you can enjoy it. A tongue-in-cheek episode. "And the Children Shall Lead" isn't like this, though. It's just downright silly and poorly done.

Spock's Brain is another farcical episode, again enjoyed purely for the comedy of it. But "Mark of Gideon"? I'm in agreement with Geck. It's just downright implausible. I can't get over how Spock, an extremely smart Vulcan being such as he is, can not catch those coordinate issues. Plus, the whole overpopulation thing is downright ridiculously handled. No, I found the whole thing quite a charade.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps the Gideonites didn't literally build an exact duplicate of the ship, but only used a sort of holodeck to create it?

A virtual re-creation of the Enterprise so perfect in every detail that it could fool Captain Kirk? A man who knows every deck and level, every compartment, every nook and cranny, every sound and vibration of his ship? Especially when there's no indication that any Gideonite has ever been aboard any Connie-class starship, let alone the Enterprise.

The Gideonites could have stolen the plans for the ship from the computers. And if the program is convincing enough, even Kirk would be fooled. He's never seen a holodeck before, remember...

 

[Captrek]

I have some comments to make on Amok Time. Spock observes that T’Pring’s actions are “flawlessly logical.” However, I find T’Pau’s behavior to be inexplicable.

Spock tells T’Pau that Kirk does not know that the fight is to the death. He begs her to forbid it. A reasonable solution might be to tell Kirk about the fight to the death and allow him to make an informed decision. T’Pau tells Spock to shut the fuck up and withholds the fateful information from Kirk until after he is committed to the fight.

Just on a moral level, that’s unconscionable.

More to the point for a Vulcan, is that it’s so illogical. It sets up an inevitable disaster for Vulcan, and T’Pau owes McCoy a drink for saving her planet from the consequences of her actions.

Without the McCoy Miracle, the captain of the Enterprise gets killed by the first officer, or vice versa. Either way, that’s headline news around the Federation. Inevitably the story of what happened will come out, and then the whole Federation will know about pon farr and koon-ut kal-if-fee. Considering how upset T’Pau is about even two outworlders being let in on the Vulcan secrets, the information becoming public is surely something T’Pau would consider a disaster... right? How can setting up this situation be logical?

She looks pretty old. Maybe she’s senile.



Kirk makes a pretty boneheaded decision too, which I guess we’ll have to chalk up to a brain fart. He has been introduced to a very scary looking Vulcan who, he is told, will act “if cowardice is seen.” Kirk describes his plan to McCoy, “If I get into any trouble, I'll quit, and Spock wins, and honor is satisfied.” It should occur to Kirk that quitting if he gets into trouble could be what T’Pau meant by “cowardice.” At the very least, he should ask a few questions before accepting. There are enough signs that something isn’t right.

Then again, this is the same guy who doesn’t order Enterprise’s shields raised when Reliant doesn’t respond to hails, so I guess he’s capable of missing even obvious signs of danger.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I have some comments to make on Amok Time. Spock observes that T’Pring’s actions are “flawlessly logical.” However, I find T’Pau’s behavior to be inexplicable.

Spock tells T’Pau that Kirk does not know that the fight is to the death. He begs her to forbid it. A reasonable solution might be to tell Kirk about the fight to the death and allow him to make an informed decision. T’Pau tells Spock to shut the fuck up and withholds the fateful information from Kirk until after he is committed to the fight.

Just on a moral level, that’s unconscionable.

More to the point for a Vulcan, is that it’s so illogical. It sets up an inevitable disaster for Vulcan, and T’Pau owes McCoy a drink for saving her planet from the consequences of her actions.

Without the McCoy Miracle, the captain of the Enterprise gets killed by the first officer, or vice versa. Either way, that’s headline news around the Federation. Inevitably the story of what happened will come out, and then the whole Federation will know about pon farr and koon-ut kal-if-fee. Considering how upset T’Pau is about even two outworlders being let in on the Vulcan secrets, the information becoming public is surely something T’Pau would consider a disaster... right? How can setting up this situation be logical?

She looks pretty old. Maybe she’s senile.

Not so much.

How many witnesses to Spock's wedding would be left who might talk? Only McCoy and possibly Spock, right?

Spock would fall on his sword, and it is safe to assume that both T'Pau and T'Pring would know this. To protect Vulcan, he would claim he alone to be responsible for Kirk's death. As he was planning to do anyway, he would consider what he did a crime, resign his commission, please guilty, and offer no defense.

By T'Pau's weight, Spock would have no public trial, there would be no opportunity for testimony, and also Spock himself would do everything to ensure this. As he planned, Spock would plead guilty and offer no defense, and the only public hearing would be his sentencing.

The only possible weak link would be McCoy. With T'Pau pressing, Starfleet would swear him to secrecy, lest he spend his life on a Federation prison planet, perhaps mining Borite.

 

[scotpens]

A virtual re-creation of the Enterprise so perfect in every detail that it could fool Captain Kirk? A man who knows every deck and level, every compartment, every nook and cranny, every sound and vibration of his ship? Especially when there's no indication that any Gideonite has ever been aboard any Connie-class starship, let alone the Enterprise.

The Gideonites could have stolen the plans for the ship from the computers. And if the program is convincing enough, even Kirk would be fooled. He's never seen a holodeck before, remember...

A set of plans, no matter how detailed, still wouldn’t provide bits that only Kirk would know: art objects and pictures on the walls, knickknacks, Kirk’s own personal belongings in his quarters. Or the stain on the lab table where Dr. McCoy spilled acid. (Unless that had been fixed by then.)

 

[Captrek]

Hey, Myasischev, I actually found something official and relevant!

USC 8 § 12 §§ 1401

TITLE 8--ALIENS AND NATIONALITY

CHAPTER 12--IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY

SUBCHAPTER III--NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION

Part I--Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization​

Sec. 1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person

(A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or
(B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 288 of title 22,​

may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States.​

That’s the law as of January 3, 2007, but it was substantially similar when The Omega Glory was made in 1968.

I think that settles it. By paragraph (c), the first generation born to American emigrants are American citizens if both parents are American, but the grandchildren are not.

 

[skylark14]

edit: oh, the early episode wear kirk is surprised/agitated he gets a female as yeoman - so much for the 23rd century politically correct paradise

Yes, this is a good example, and does jar me every time I see it. Sometimes it seemed the early 20th century world that formed the writers would peek out in the oddest places in the scripts they wrote. What's surprising is that no one could see them and pluck them out before they made it to the screen.

That’s very much a generational thing. When Star Trek premiered on NBC, Kirk’s irritation at being assigned a female yeoman — and numerous other examples of the show’s “sexism” (a word that didn’t exist at the time) didn’t seem jarring or inappropriate to me at all. Funny, though — we never saw any male yeomen in the original series, did we? At least no characters were identified as such.

Another funny thing is that I must be roughly the same generation as you because I was propped in front of the t.v. for the premiere in 1966. (My first boss in the 70s even referred to me as his "girl" just like Mira Romaine .) Even so, I do remember being jarred by a few of the things I saw during that first run. It really wasn't the Dark Ages even in 1966 and they were supposedly showing a very progressive future. However, being female probably gave me the chip on the shoulder I needed to see the put-downs. I've tried to challenge myself as to whether I'm really remembering correctly, and I definitely remember being affronted by some of the dialogue, simply because they did seem to be making such an effort to present a progressive future, but then these anachronistic exchanges would slip through. I still think a large part of the reason was that most of the people who created and executed the show were part of a generation or even two behind us and this stuff was so ingrained it didn't even register. Or maybe you're right and they just didn't want to get too far ahead of their target audience. Who knows, maybe by the 23rd century the pendulum will have swung all the way back again, and ST will have got it just right after all!

 

[Nerys Myk]

Perhaps the Gideonites didn't literally build an exact duplicate of the ship, but only used a sort of holodeck to create it?

A virtual re-creation of the Enterprise so perfect in every detail that it could fool Captain Kirk? A man who knows every deck and level, every compartment, every nook and cranny, every sound and vibration of his ship? Especially when there's no indication that any Gideonite has ever been aboard any Connie-class starship, let alone the Enterprise.

Little know fact: Starfleet uses Gideonite labor in it's shipyards. They work cheap and housing is a breeze.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Spectre of the Gun really pushed the envelope for me.

 

[Myasishchev]

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

Welp, you're right; that would deny citizenship for the grandkids. American citizenship, anyhow.

Btw, you're totally right about Amok Time. Great episode, totally messed up.

 

[Merky]

All Our Yesterdays... Star Trek has thrown some bizarre shit at me, especially throughout S3, but this episode just had me beating my head across my Macbook's keyboard. When I first watched it, I remembered it as the episode that they were at a library, jumped through time, Spock and McCoy spent it in snow land and Kirk was a witch...

Re-watching it made me go WTF with every line that came out of Spock and Zarabeth's mouth.

First, the Judge guy explains to Kirk that they need to be adjusted to the period that they want to live in so that they can survive.

JUDGE: We can never go back. We must live out our lives here in the past. The atavachron has prepared our cell structure and our brain patterns to make life natural here. To return to the future would mean instant death.
KIRK: Prepared? I was not prepared. Your Mister Atoz did not prepare me in any way.
JUDGE: Then you must get back at once! If you were not transformed, you can only survive for a few hours here in the past. Come. Hurry. Hurry.

So this is implying that Kirk, Spock, and McCoy are still their same selves of the 23rd century. Yet Spock's body and mind is still reverting to this "primitive PMS Vulcan"

SPOCK: This is impossible. Impossible. I am a Vulcan.
MCCOY: The Vulcan you knew won't exist for another five thousand years. Think, man. What's happening on your planet right now, this very moment?
SPOCK: My ancestors are barbarians. Warlike barbarians.
MCCOY: Who nearly killed themselves off with their own passions. Spock, you're reverting into your ancestors five thousand years before you were born!
SPOCK: I've lost myself. I do not know who I am. Can we go back?

But McCoy is still the rational in control Doctor of the 23rd century. So WTF man? What is up with this shoddy story telling? So we can have Spock mack on cave-woman? Not only that, they spend a total of 3 hours trapped in the past... And within those three hours Spock falls madly head over heels over this woman?

It took Kirk like 2 weeks to fall in love with Edith Keeler back in City on the Edge of Forever, the episode this one tries to bootleg.

MCCOY: Come on, Spock.
SPOCK: You start ahead, Doctor. I do not wish to part from you.
ZARABETH: I cannot come. If I go back, I will die.

Not to mention they do the deed while McCoy is in the next cave over. Srsly... This just pushed all sense of reality out the window.

 

[number6]

That one's easy to explain. Vulcan physiology reacts differently to the effects of such a drastic timeshift than humans do. It wasn't much of a stretch, certainly not worth banging my head into my laptop over.

 

[Merky]

That one's easy to explain. Vulcan physiology reacts differently to the effects of such a drastic timeshift than humans do. It wasn't much of a stretch, certainly not worth banging my head into my laptop over.

But how would a time shift "affect" physiology if you are still the same as you left? When Spock returns he's back to his good ol' self and doesn't need to spend another three hours de-barbaric-izing himself.

It was clearly stated that all who pass through the time machine must be processed in order to survive. Spock would have died along with McCoy if he did not leave within time, regardless. So I can't buy it that Spock simply changes without being processed if that was the device used to save Kirk and in turn Spock and McCoy.

It was simply a farfetched plot device that didn't work on selling me the disjointed love story.