Which came first, the DS9 or the B5?

[PKTrekGirl]

^ You know, Neroon, I think that in all the time I've known you, I'd never read that story. Thanks for posting it.

And yeah...I agree about the 'difference' that exists with B5. It's enough like DS9 so that often, fans of one like the other (intergalactic war, long story arcs, strong charcter development, large extended cast, etc)...but it is quite different in many ways.

I find that for one thing, the alien races are quite different from the Trek alien races. For example, I LOVE the Minbari. I mean, not just the individual character of Delenn or your namesake or whatever... I just like the whole race - their history, their almost 'mystical'/spiritual culture, their casts and the way they are represented on the Grey Council, their ties to humanity and to Valen, their ties to the Rangers...everything about them. IMO, probably the most interesting race in scifi - certainly it's the one alien race I am still utterly fancinated by. I'd be quite happy if JMS ever did a series, just on the Minbari. Not that that's likely to happen...but I say this to emphasize my keen fascination with this race. And let's face it - they are like NO race encountered in Trek.

The Technomages (although not strictly a 'race') are fascinating too. And again, nothing like them in Trek.

B5 just makes you re-think the entire canvas of scifi. That's one of the things that's so great about it.

 

[Neroon]

It's that "break" I took from Trek that convinced me the franchise as a whole needed to lay low for awhile before coming out with any new Trek, after Voyager. I am nowhere near - nor will I ever be - to the level of Trekkie I once was, mostly because i just plain burned out. Of course, having B5 - and later Farscape and Firefly and nuWho - to watch made the break easier to handle.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

^ In truth, I don't even know that you could classify me as a 'Trekkie' any longer. I still love DS9, and I like TOS alot (although some of this, even, is due to the nostalgia factor I would suspect). But the rest of the Trek shows don't even make my top 15 or 20 scifi shows of all time anymore.

I actually think I listed them out in a thread in SFF a few weeks ago...but for me, DS9 and B5 are in a class by themselves at the top. They ARE the top tier in my book.

Then the next tier would include things like nuBSG, Buffy/Angel, The X-Files, Farscape, Lost, and a couple of others.

The next tier after that would include some shows like Firefly (there only because it never really had a chance to develop), Roswell, nuWho, and and a couple of others. TOS would probably fall in this group.

Only after those would my next favorite Trek show make the list...and that would probably be VOY. And that would be mixed in with shows like Smallville, The 4400, and a few others.

I don't care at all for ENT or TNG.

The further we get away from Star Trek as an ongoing series, the less excited I seem to be about it. I like the Trek universe...but shows like DS9, B5, Farscape, and nuBSG showed us that it is possible to push the envelope. And I don't think Berman-trek did much of that. He played it too safe, IMO. Especially with VOY.

VOY could easily have BEEN what nuBSG is now, if Berman had relaxed the reigns and let it happen - especially once Ron Moore joined that team after DS9 ended (turned out to be for a very short period because of the tight reigns). VOY could have been (and should have been) alot more dark and gritty than it was...and as we have seen, Ron Moore is all about Dark and Gritty. VOY, of all the Trek shows, had the most unrealized potential. And that potential BECAME nuBSG.

DS9, fortunately, was saved from much of Berman's conservatism and 'vanilla' outlook...but VOY and ENT really look bland and vanilla now. And TNG.....yipes! Talk about 80's PC!

DS9 and B5 have aged much better, IMO.

 

[MyCylon]

Thanks for your comments regarding my post, PKTrekGirl and Neroon. I really appreciate them.

It's funny when you look back sometimes and realize how your views and attitudes can change - not to mention your favorite tv shows...

I used to consider myself a Trek for a long time. TNG was my favorite tv show bar none for a couple of years until it was dethroned by DS9. And believe me when I say I had a hard time admitting that to myself. It felt almost like blasphemy back then .

I also remember hanging in there with Voyager for a really, really long time. I REALLY wanted to like that show as much as I did TNG or DS9 back then. I think I must have stuck with it about six or six and a half years before I really gave up and didn't continue watching. I absolutely agree that it had a terrific premise that just wasn't used the way it could have been.

For a good while now, however, I wouldn't really consider myself a Trek fan anymore. I basically passed on ENT (though I did see season three entirely), and I can't say I'm too excited about the upcoming movie. It's not even that I think it's going to be bad. It's just that the name Trek just doesn't stir the same excitement it used to.

I still think DS9 is a terrific show, mind you (I agree that both it and B5 aged much better than, for example TNG). But then it really carved its nice in the Trek universe, I think. TNG, once my untouched favorite, has really fallen from grace in my own book. I basically can't sit through individual episodes anymore. Many of the stories seem rather cliched and forced, sometimes overly simplistic and over the head with the morality to me. I also really feel that there is little to no development in the characters, simply making it a lot less rewarding to watch.

I think one of the things B5 did an excellent job of was creating this entirely new and very, very rich and vibrant universe in a short period of time. That's quite an achievement, I think.
And one of the things that's at the heart and core of that universe is consequences. Characters really change throughout the series. Events noticeably shape the universe and inform the following events.
That's probably one of the things DS9 could have used a little bit more of. They did a marvellous job for a Trek show, but B5 simply went that bit further.

In any case, I can't really imagine my favorite show(s) being anything else than serialized shows. There's nothing wrong with the episodic format. I just don't find it nearly as rewarding anymore.

So in that way, it's no surprise nuBSG has become my favorite, really. And I think both DS9 and B5 probably did a lot to make a show like nuBSG possible in the first place.

 

[Neroon]

In one sense, it's this niche that each show - DS9 and B5 - has carved out which has forged a bit of friendship and understanding between the fanbases for each. They know what it's like to walk that different path, to stand out in many respects and be somewhat taken to task for it. Many DS9'ers chafe at the idea that "the show isn't Trek". Babyloniacs bristle at being referred to as "too different" and so on.

 

[Hermiod]

A B5/DS9 ripped off DS9/B5 thread ? Who died and made it 1997 again ?

 

[Neroon]

Didn't you hear? It's been caught in a temporal causality loop.

 

[glindros]

Please no reset button, please no reset button.

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

There's so much internet grapewhine scuttlebut about this.

This isn't a B5 vs DS9 thread, nor intended as such either.

What is the truth about which came first?

The DS9 pilot aired about a month before B5's, and it started as a regular show around a year before.

Maybe JMS had a script or a plot outline earlier, but there's no reason to think anyone involved in DS9 read it or even knew about it.

In any objective sense, DS9 came first.

What I recall hearing/reading (DO NOT recall the source)
J. Michael Straczynski wrote the pilot for Babylon 5 sometime in 1986 and pitched it to Paramount (So Paramount had a copy/copies of the script) weeks/months? went by and no word from Paramount. When Paramount got back to JMS they told something to the effect of "We really like your Babylon 5 idea BUT, we have decided to PASS on it. DUE TO THE FACT that Gene Roddenberry going to attempt to bring Star Trek back to television"

 

[TS-1838-SWATH]

There's so much internet grapewhine scuttlebut about this.

This isn't a B5 vs DS9 thread, nor intended as such either.

What is the truth about which came first?

The DS9 pilot aired about a month before B5's, and it started as a regular show around a year before.

Maybe JMS had a script or a plot outline earlier, but there's no reason to think anyone involved in DS9 read it or even knew about it.

In any objective sense, DS9 came first.

What

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Didn't you hear? It's been caught in a temporal causality loop.

Damnit, man. We've become unstuck in time!

 

[Lashmore]

"DS9 is the One that was, Babylon 5 is the One that is, a new Kirk with real hair is that One the will be..."

"Ah, a tripod, then?"

*Zaphras facepalms*

 

[MNM]

Yeah, it's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The egg. As whatever laid the egg that the first chicken hatched out of, wasnt a proper chicken.