Regardless of what did or didn't happen and who came 'first', WE were the ones who benefited....but getting two GREAT shows!
So Say We All!
Jan
Which came first, the DS9 or the B5?
- Thread starter Aquehonga
- Start date
So Say We All!
Jan
Regardless of what did or didn't happen and who came 'first', WE were the ones who benefited....but getting two GREAT shows!
So Say We All!
Jan
Absofragginlutely, dammit!
Yeah, it's like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Regardless of what did or didn't happen and who came 'first', WE were the ones who benefited....but getting two GREAT shows!
So Say We All!
Jan
Absofragginlutely, dammit!
Agreed.
Which is exactly why I phrased this thread's title the way I did
The DS9 & the B5 are like that chicken & the egg
number6
Vice Admiral
Which is exactly why I phrased this thread's title the way I did
The DS9 & the B5 are like that chicken & the egg
They are neither the chicken or the egg.. They are simply two series that were developed around the same time, both influenced by Star Trek to varying degrees. I think it's purely coincidence that they both took place on a space station. JMS "invented" much of this rivalry to motivate his crew.
number6:
I was pretty specific when I said that we are NOT going down the road of arguing over who supposedly stole from who and the usual accompanying commentary (which is pure conjecture) concerning the character (or lack thereof) of JMS, Rick Berman, or Michael Pillar.
This is exactly the sort of thing that gets threads like this in trouble and creates hard feelings where there doesn't need to be any.
Please refrain from accusing JMS of 'inventing' anything except for 'all things related to the B5 universe' itself.
Thanks.
number6
Vice Admiral
I'm not accusing JMS of anything here. Both shows are influenced by Star Trek: B5, albiet in a much broader sense in that JMS was a fan of TOS, and ultimately worked with some of the writers of TOS on B5. DS9 was influenced by TOS and Trek in a different way as being part of the Trek franchise.
My comment about the coincence that both take place on a space station was not meant to be sarcastic or snarky. It was a coincidence. I have no doubt Piller was unaware of the development of this series. People pitch ideas to Paramount all the time. Piller worked on Star Trek. I seriously doubt the two offices would keep in touch, if they ever even spoke at all.
JMS motivated his crew and writers by telling them how much he wanted his show to kick Star Trek's butt. This was an effort to get his production crew to work harder on a smaller budget This isn't some random opinion I pulled out of my ass. It was stated in issues of Starlog, Cinefantastique, and in other interviews of the show throughout its run.
I am not accusing either side of "stealing" from the other. That is just silly that you would infer that, or that I was trying to take the conversation down that road. My point was that neither was chicken nor egg and why.
I don't see any reason to infer otherwise.
The strength of writing and character development on both shows is enough to convince me that neither is a ripoff. If one show really was a ripoff, we wouldn't have depth and multifaceted episodes, we would simply have poorly conceived dialogue and formulaic plots.
Her inference is more than understandable, not only based upon this thread but the past experiences whenever this beyond tired topic comes up. Such comments like that about jms' alleged motivations are the types that cause the imbroglios we have tried to avoid in these threads. Unless you can post links showing proof of such material, it's better to stay away from them completely.
That's what PKTrekGirl is saying, and it makes good sense to follow her advice.
What Neroon said, number6.
There is no point in going on about this. I'm sure that JMS sought to motivate the B5 team in many ways - and it is apparent that he succeeded in that endeavor because the end result was a fantastic show.
However, as Neroon stated above, we really need to stay away from speculating on JMS's motives (or Berman & Pillar's either, for that matter) as they pertain to the topic of the DS9/B5 War Without End.
The bottom line is that we don't know the whole story, and we likely never will. One of the three key players is already dead, and the other two have given us little in the way of what really did or didn't happen during the creation or execution of those shows, as they relate to each other. And Ira Behr, who could be considered the fourth key player, hasn't said anything either.
This is why we have shrunk away from going down this road on the board. Over the several years Neroon and I have been monitoring this topic, we have seen little in the way of productive discussion - and this results mostly in, at best, hard feelings coming out of such discussions.
Our position (and the reason why we have the B5 thread in this forum, for that matter) is because we believe that many fans of one 'epic' sort of show like DS9, B5...and perhaps BSG, have a high probability of liking the others. And that is the sort of discussion and objective we can get behind and support. Encouraging DS9 fans to give B5 a try...and encouraging B5 fans to give DS9 a try...by focusing on their similarities in a positive light.
I joined this board as a DS9 fan. One who had seen only a couple of B5 episodes when the show first came on and hated them because I thought the CGI were crap and the Centauri looked like idiots. But because of some POSITIVE encouragement I got about 5 years ago - from Neroon and others, B5 is now my second favorite show (by only a hair's breath, too, I might add) of all time...and the chief Centauri character in B5 is now my favorite scifi character ever.
THAT is the sort of experience we are trying to foster here. Using these shows as a positive springboard TO each other rather than as a dividing point AGAINST each other.
I know I'm really glad that Neroon and others gave ME that chance...or I'd have missed out on a great experience in B5. In fact, the suggestion to give B5 another chance was probably the single best piece of advice I've taken off this board since I joined it in 2001.
And as a huge fan of both shows, I believe that many others could have that same expeience.
number6
Vice Admiral
I stand by what I said: Neither show is chicken nor egg.
That I am being accused of inferring something else is insulting and demeaning. I find it very insulting that you would all choose to take sides on something that was inferred by someone else.
Maybe you should read your own f*cking rules.
For a change.
That I am being accused of inferring something else is insulting and demeaning. I find it very insulting that you would all choose to take sides on something that was inferred by someone else.
Maybe you should read your own f*cking rules.
For a change.
The DS9 pilot aired about a month before B5's, and it started as a regular show around a year before.
Maybe JMS had a script or a plot outline earlier, but there's no reason to think anyone involved in DS9 read it or even knew about it.
In any objective sense, DS9 came first.
I stand by what I said: Neither show is chicken nor egg.
That I am being accused of inferring something else is insulting and demeaning. I find it very insulting that you would all choose to take sides on something that was inferred by someone else.
Maybe you should read your own f*cking rules.
For a change.
Hey, man...relax. No need to make this into a big drama. You stated very clearly that JMS invented the rivalry between DS9 and B5 (supposedly to 'motivate his crew', but the reason is unimportant). And I don't think that is a statement you can fairly make.
What that statement meant to me is that JMS really has no legitimate beef but that he made one up (invented it - your words)...maybe to motivate whoever-the-hell (although this is irrelevant)...but with the ultimate RESULT of dividing the fans, as most RIVALRIES tend to do. Translated: JMS is in large part responsible for the division of fans.
Not at ALL an unreasonable reading of what you wrote.
And THAT, my friend, is exactly the sort of road that we are simply not gonna go down here.
If you meant otherwise, fine. But both Neroon and I read it EXACTLY the same way (and talked about it elsewhere before I wrote my first post to you). So it wasn't just me. At least two people, reading completely independant of each other, read your post that way.
Now, can we PLEASE move on from this discussion? Or do I need to close yet another War Without End Thread.
There is enough alleged "evidence" out there that I can understand why people get into these scrums. Doesn't make them right or even sensible. Suffice it to say that there are any number of responses that would be just as valid as what you contend. But that's what we want to avoid, the same old same old.
Maybe an interesting spin on this thread would be to ask not which show came first but which show came into your life first and what that meant for the other show. I'm thinking of what PKTrekGirl was saying.
Personally, I started out on DS9 since I was a huge Trek show at the time. I remember seeing an episode or two from B5's first season and thinking, 'Man, what a lousy Trek rip-off - won't last a season'
. It took me a while to get into DS9 (it finally managed to overtake TNG) but when I got in, I was really in to it.
One of the things I remember about this time was that DS9 seemed to be either ignored by people or slammed. In many cases, B5 was cited as a positive counter example. I remember one reviewer in particular who considered B5 the holy grail of television and kept bashing DS9. Plus, one I thing I remember (and I have nothing but my own subjective recollection of this) was that while the DS9 cast and crew were always firmly fixed on DS9 in interviews, the B5 cast and crew seemed to 'attack' DS9 quite often. I suppose it makes sense in that it was the 'smaller' show and didn't have the Trek brand to back it up.
Suffice it to say, I didn't think very much of B5 and all of this only made me more defiant (no pun intended) towards it. So I grated my teeth and continued living in my world of "DS9" is great, B5 sucks".
Anyway, praise of B5 wouldn't stop. And I decided to give it another 'chance'. I've added the quotation marks since this wasn't actually a chance I was giving it. It was more of an attempt to prove to myself that DS9 WAS better than B5 (stupid I know, but what can I say?).
Interestingly, although I did come out with my preconceptions proven 'correct', something did stick. And over time, B5 rose in my estimation. Rose substantially, I might say.
I don't know at what point it happened but somewhere along the way the whole rivalry thing just up in a plume of smoke. I suppose I grew up or something
. That was when I was really able to open myself up and watch B5 with an open mind. And I'm really happy I was able to do that.
I will say that DS9 has always remained my favorite. I'd also say that my favorite characters and individual episodes between the two shows are DS9 ones. However, B5 is really, really close. In some aspects I'll also say that it outstrips DS9. The ongoing story is more taught and stringent and develops incredible momentum at some point. And even though DS9 could be a true rollercoaster, it just wasn't quite as deftly packed over the course of its run.
It's funny for me when I look back at how all of this developed. Today, I don't really understand how I could have been so narrow minded, but there you have it. And, seriously, the only one to lose out is oneself.
As it stands today, my favorite SciFi shows of all times rank as follows:
1. nuBSG
2. DS9
3. B5
I suppose going from a show I thought was a cheap Trek rip-off to one of my top three shows is pretty good.
Personally, I started out on DS9 since I was a huge Trek show at the time. I remember seeing an episode or two from B5's first season and thinking, 'Man, what a lousy Trek rip-off - won't last a season'
. It took me a while to get into DS9 (it finally managed to overtake TNG) but when I got in, I was really in to it.One of the things I remember about this time was that DS9 seemed to be either ignored by people or slammed. In many cases, B5 was cited as a positive counter example. I remember one reviewer in particular who considered B5 the holy grail of television and kept bashing DS9. Plus, one I thing I remember (and I have nothing but my own subjective recollection of this) was that while the DS9 cast and crew were always firmly fixed on DS9 in interviews, the B5 cast and crew seemed to 'attack' DS9 quite often. I suppose it makes sense in that it was the 'smaller' show and didn't have the Trek brand to back it up.
Suffice it to say, I didn't think very much of B5 and all of this only made me more defiant (no pun intended) towards it. So I grated my teeth and continued living in my world of "DS9" is great, B5 sucks".
Anyway, praise of B5 wouldn't stop. And I decided to give it another 'chance'. I've added the quotation marks since this wasn't actually a chance I was giving it. It was more of an attempt to prove to myself that DS9 WAS better than B5 (stupid I know, but what can I say?).
Interestingly, although I did come out with my preconceptions proven 'correct', something did stick. And over time, B5 rose in my estimation. Rose substantially, I might say.
I don't know at what point it happened but somewhere along the way the whole rivalry thing just up in a plume of smoke. I suppose I grew up or something
. That was when I was really able to open myself up and watch B5 with an open mind. And I'm really happy I was able to do that.I will say that DS9 has always remained my favorite. I'd also say that my favorite characters and individual episodes between the two shows are DS9 ones. However, B5 is really, really close. In some aspects I'll also say that it outstrips DS9. The ongoing story is more taught and stringent and develops incredible momentum at some point. And even though DS9 could be a true rollercoaster, it just wasn't quite as deftly packed over the course of its run.
It's funny for me when I look back at how all of this developed. Today, I don't really understand how I could have been so narrow minded, but there you have it. And, seriously, the only one to lose out is oneself.
As it stands today, my favorite SciFi shows of all times rank as follows:
1. nuBSG
2. DS9
3. B5
I suppose going from a show I thought was a cheap Trek rip-off to one of my top three shows is pretty good
.
^ What a great post!
Thanks very much for posting that, Justtoyourleft. Your experience isn't exactly like mine (I didn't get into the DS9/B5 rivalry thing - I just saw only a bit of B5, didn't like it, and very prematurely wrote it off) but it's close enough to where I can appreciate very much where you are coming from.
And I'm really glad that you are as pleased as I am that I gave B5 another chance....and that your result was so similar to mine.
Thanks very much for posting that, Justtoyourleft. Your experience isn't exactly like mine (I didn't get into the DS9/B5 rivalry thing - I just saw only a bit of B5, didn't like it, and very prematurely wrote it off) but it's close enough to where I can appreciate very much where you are coming from.
And I'm really glad that you are as pleased as I am that I gave B5 another chance....and that your result was so similar to mine.
I have to say
DS9 is one of my favourite Sci Fi series of all... and yet, I haven't been able to sit through an episode of NBSG, and my interest in the original BSG is... iffy.
Yet, that doesn't seem common. Is there a way to get into BSG that I'm missing? Or whats the attraction to BSG? Maybe its not why I watch DS9...
DS9 is one of my favourite Sci Fi series of all... and yet, I haven't been able to sit through an episode of NBSG, and my interest in the original BSG is... iffy.
Yet, that doesn't seem common. Is there a way to get into BSG that I'm missing? Or whats the attraction to BSG? Maybe its not why I watch DS9...
Well I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I like nuBSG is because it isn't a sci-fi series, it is a drama series in a sci-fi universe. It is heavily character based and the drama stems from the decisions these characters make rather than some random alien-of-the-week plot. It also has the balls to take big risks such as the New Caprica arc. It is a very tense show because there is a sense that any of these characters could die in some random episode because quite a few already have.
It's not perfect and it can get very depressing in parts, but these final episodes really are making me re-evaluate whether DS9 is my favourite "sci-fi" show anymore.
Justtoyourleft, I really appreciated your post as well. It's an interesting thing that i did NOT like B5 the first time I tried it. In fact, I preferred "Space Rangers" over it, DS9, and Time Traxx. Please forgive me for I know I have sinned greatly. 
The curious thing is that while SR was canceled, I gave DS9 a try next and enjoyed it for awhile. But around mid-S3 I found that I had forgotten to record about 2 or 3 episodes in a row... and didn't miss it. To this day I'm not really sure why. It wasn't like later with VOY and ENT where it felt like the same Trek thing all over. "Meridian" was the last episode I saw for awhile. Right about that time was when I began to really hit the stride with the re-released B5. Eventually, I ended up borrowing the DS9 tapes of a friend and really got back into the story. I'd heard the stories of the "wars" between the two, but it didn't matter.
By this point I was in full-on B5 mode. Costumes and all. It was different, very different from TNG and DS9... but I didn't see it as better. That "different" aspect was what did it. The music, the sets, the effects.... they all made B5 stand out in a good way. Ironically, that break I took from DS9 - essentially from all of Trek - helped me enjoy DS9 all the more.
The curious thing is that while SR was canceled, I gave DS9 a try next and enjoyed it for awhile. But around mid-S3 I found that I had forgotten to record about 2 or 3 episodes in a row... and didn't miss it. To this day I'm not really sure why. It wasn't like later with VOY and ENT where it felt like the same Trek thing all over. "Meridian" was the last episode I saw for awhile. Right about that time was when I began to really hit the stride with the re-released B5. Eventually, I ended up borrowing the DS9 tapes of a friend and really got back into the story. I'd heard the stories of the "wars" between the two, but it didn't matter.
By this point I was in full-on B5 mode. Costumes and all. It was different, very different from TNG and DS9... but I didn't see it as better. That "different" aspect was what did it. The music, the sets, the effects.... they all made B5 stand out in a good way. Ironically, that break I took from DS9 - essentially from all of Trek - helped me enjoy DS9 all the more.
