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Where was the TOS engine room?

Like your most recent post there - very much looking forward to it!
Well, as I pointed out there... my studies of the models are independent of my studies of the design of the fictional starship. I don't believe that you should mix in any reference to fictional scale when your goal is to faithfully document an actual physical object. So that part of what I'm doing is strictly looking at the models as models.
 
Put like that, I can see why "fictional scale" doesn't play a part in your documentation of the model. Makes quite a bit of sense, actually!

Regarding your fictional starship plans, are they affected at all by the shape of the models - or are they drawn purely from the plans of FJ?
 
... are they affected at all by the shape of the models - or are they drawn purely from the plans of FJ?
They are entirely affected by the shape of the 11 foot model, which in turn is why all work on the interior has stopped until I have an exterior.

And the only plans that'll work for me for the 11 foot model are the ones drawn by my own hand, which is why I won't use any of the others that are available. I'm a firm believer in learning by doing, so the only wayto learn the Enterprise is by doing it yourself (from start to finish :techman: ).

Edit:
I think it is important to explain this a little more. Almost all the data that I have on both models and the production history of them is available to everyone, and people have been looking over that data for years. But the operative term there is looking over, which is different from applying that data.

A solid example comes from this quote...At the time of that post, MGagen had just as much information available to him as I had when I drew up my plans for the 33 inch model. The difference was that rather than looking at the data, I decided to try to apply it. And I've refined those plans even more by building models based on them to cross check my plans against the original model.

You learn more working with the data than by just looking at it. And by just looking at the data, you might not realize just how much you have.

Their are other plans of the 11 foot model, but I'd rather take all the raw data and apply it myself and see what I come up with. :techman:
 
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The size of the model was based on the largest drawing that could be fit on a 24" x 36" sheet ...

Where'd you read this? It's new to me.

Not that 24x36 paper doesn't exist, but standard drafting velum that size would be 22" x 34" (D-Size).
 
The size of the model was based on the largest drawing that could be fit on a 24" x 36" sheet ...
Where'd you read this? It's new to me.

Not that 24x36 paper doesn't exist, but standard drafting velum that size would be 22" x 34" (D-Size).
Where did I read what? That the plans were 24x36?

While low on the list of questions I planned to send along to Datin, if you really want that asked, I'll ask it.

But to be perfectly honest, it came from living in the drafting industry throughout my childhood (from 1967 to 1982) where my father serviced blueprint copiers (mainly Blu-Ray copiers, which were designed to handle 36 inch wide paper*) and owned a drafting supply store. I had tons of both bonded and vellum sheets at 24x36 to draw on while growing up. And I could make as many copies as I wanted on the copiers we had around. Seemed like a pretty standard size to me.

Plus I had no problems finding 24x36 sheets of vellum in the early 1990s when I still did all my drawing using ink-on-vellum techniques. But granted, those were all sheets... the largest pad of vellum I can recall getting to work with sounds like the size you are talking about.

Of course, I've never taken a drafting course in my life... so what would I know. :shifty:




* Note: My recollection of the process of those systems was that you lined up the original vellum and a sheet of treated bonded paper, ran them through the machine which shone a bright light through the vellum. The vellum would come out the other side while the bonded paper continued on to get exposed to ammonia vapors... and depending on the type of treated paper, you would end up with either blue or black (or even brown as I recall) copy of the original.​
 
Okee doke. Sounds like we had similar backgrounds (draftsman from 1974 till the "computer age" made me leave the pens and pencils behind). I think my hands are STILL dry from running Diazo copies.

My primary point was I don't see why paper size would have anything to do with model scale, but guess I can understand wanting to make 1:1 drawings and choosing a paper size to fit.

As for paper sizes, maybe it was just that my shop used certain standard sizes (A, B, C, D, E and F) and yours was more varied. I can't really recall using vellum sheets other than those sizes.
 
While the paper size was an assumption, the previous versions of the plans (most likely from mid October of 1964) actually included scale references on them and size call-outs (including the length of the secondary hull at 217', diameters of the secondary hull at 52' and thickness of the dorsal at 10'), but the final plans for the model had none of this. Rather, the final plans (which were finished three days after the 33 inch model had been started) came with a single notation that read:

"STAR TREK"
SPACE SHIP MINIATURE - FULL SIZE
& 3" = 1'-0" TO LARGE MINIATURE
MATT JEFFERIES 11-7-64

My understanding is that the dimensions (on the page) of the primary hull and secondary hull were the same between the earlier plans and the final plans. The general shape of the primary hull (though obviously the curves on the 33 inch model most likely came from one of the earlier drawings) and it's diameter were the same, and the length and shape of the secondary hull (though the front of the secondary hull on the final plans is quite different) were also the same. This let Datin start in on the 33 inch model before having the final plans as production was starting to get behind.

And some of these drawings might have been done straight onto bonded paper, making each an only copy, which might have been why older plans were used for things like hull markings rather than using a copy. With time running out, they most likely decided to use what they had on hand pushing the older drawings back into use as a time saver.

I know from my experience on Starship Exeter that we had a couple weeks to design and build a shuttlecraft interior set. We settled on a two wall set and I drew up the plans very roughly reverse engineering them from screen grabs of the original series set... and the plans were not pretty. But what we got in the way of a set was beautiful.

I don't have any images of the finished set, but here are a couple of it under construction...

shuttleint.jpg

In retrospect, I guess we actually had a few years to finish... but we didn't know that at the time. :eek:

But if Jefferies was under the same pressure that I (and the guys at mnfx) was under while working on The Cage, then corners were most likely cut to get something down on the page for people to start working with. And that early in November of 1964, the only thing on the model Enterprise that had to match a sets being built was the bridge dome... as the zoom in on the bridge was already planned on, and the part that used the set was finished and in the can before the 11 foot model was even started.

And when the 11 foot model was started I'd guess that they used a pantograph to make the size changes from the original plans. From what I can tell, even though rushed (the 11 foot model was built in three weeks), the 11 foot model matches what was drawn on the final plans better than the 33 inch model.

But yeah, there are a number of assumptions there... based on my personal experiences. Considering that I worked a fan film and never took a drafting course, my experiences might not be as close to those of Jefferies as I believe. So far additional data has supported my assumptions, but as soon as something pops up that undermines them, I'm sure I'll have to re-evaluate everything. :eek:




Edit: As this is already a long post...
Okee doke. Sounds like we had similar backgrounds (draftsman from 1974 till the "computer age" made me leave the pens and pencils behind). I think my hands are STILL dry from running Diazo copies.
I still have most of my drafting stencils and all of my french curves... I still love drawing things by hand to this day. It is funny in that back in the early 1990s while I was hand drawing everything, a friend tried to show me the way of the future. He tried to do some plans on his old Mac Plus using Illustrator 88, and it seemed it took him forever to do anything.

Today I can do everything much faster on a computer than by hand... it is amazing how times have changed.
 
Edit: As this is already a long post...
Okee doke. Sounds like we had similar backgrounds (draftsman from 1974 till the "computer age" made me leave the pens and pencils behind). I think my hands are STILL dry from running Diazo copies.
I still have most of my drafting stencils and all of my french curves... I still love drawing things by hand to this day. It is funny in that back in the early 1990s while I was hand drawing everything, a friend tried to show me the way of the future. He tried to do some plans on his old Mac Plus using Illustrator 88, and it seemed it took him forever to do anything.

Today I can do everything much faster on a computer than by hand... it is amazing how times have changed.

I hear ya, brother! :)
 
I apologize for the lateness of this reply. I don't come around here as often as I used to (real life and all that...) and it takes time to catch up on all the fascinating posts (particulary by Shaw).

Almost all the data that I have on both models and the production history of them is available to everyone, and people have been looking over that data for years. But the operative term there is looking over, which is different from applying that data.

A solid example comes from this quote...At the time of that post, MGagen had just as much information available to him as I had when I drew up my plans for the 33 inch model. The difference was that rather than looking at the data, I decided to try to apply it.

In all fairness, I made the above comment in April of 2004. There have been a few stones turned over since then...

Keep up the good work, all. I'm still following it; if a bit sporadically.

M.
 
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