Where was the TOS engine room?

[F. King Daniel]

Interesting. It looks a lot like Doug Drexler's but with everything shifted around a bit. I don't like the TNG style deuterium tank. I think large pods would look better.

Personally I would get the FJ plans, say the pipe cathedral was the warp core (no unseen core shafts below), stick it on deck 19 at the base of the pylons (shrinking the hanger a little) and fit the engine room opposite the hangar deck. I'd maybe put some antimatter pods on deck 23, replace the photon torpedoes on deck 3 with phasers (as seen in TAS and SToGaM) and frown really hard at the prospect of fitting a photon launcher or two on the microscopic lowest level of the saucer (sharing space that doesn't exist with the main phasers!). Actually, since nothing fits anyway, I might as well keep photons on the upper level too. And stick aft phasers and photons above the hanger a la "In a Mirror, Darkly".

Screw it, I'd just stick with the FJ plans.

...and people have trouble seeing why JJ's people made the ship bigger. So it all fits!

 

[Shaw]

Now Shaw puts the works further aft than I did...

Remember, that is Jefferies' placement, not mine. I like it further forward if given an option.

Actually, since nothing fits anyway...

Odd... I, personally, have not found that fitting things was an issue. But seeing as you've already declared the following...

I'm bored of the old Trek ships. They've been tech manual'd to death over the decades.

... I'm guessing that you aren't really all that interested in this to begin with.

There is, in this thread alone, a ton of information that has never been applied to any (published) technical manual or set of plans on the original Enterprise.

But if all this is boring you, I'll stay out of this thread and wait for someone else (who is honestly interested in this stuff) to start a thread to join in on. There is no point in contributing one's efforts for someone who really doesn't care to begin with... and now I'm sorry I wasted my time and bored you in the process.

 

[Timo]

..but no, they just ignored it and pulled "deck 3" outa thin air which, of course, contradicts said sources.
I'd much rather have a well thought out set of deck plans that make some kind of logical sense, regardless of whether those making the shows/movies care to use it.

Then again, Deck 3 is an impressively logical place for the quarters of the top officers and their closest aides. It's sort of traditional for them to live in the superstructure of the ship; it makes for rapid commuting; and Deck 3 is now supported by McCoy's "Man Trap" doorsign and Spock's ST2 address.

Deck 12 makes very limited sense, which is why I'd love to argue that the earliest episodes featured a damaged and otherwise wounded ship that had not had a chance to properly recover after "Where No Man". That'd also explain the reshuffling of crew positions, the double duty that Spock had to pull, the crippling lack of dilithium reserves in "Mudd's Women", and a host of other details.

After that, it's a contest between Decks 3 and 5, the latter of which only enjoys support from "Journey to Babel". And we know from "Elaan of Troyius" that the ship is short on luxury quarters. With 114 assorted delegates aboard in "Journey to Babel", it would be no wonder if Kirk got evicted from his standard quarters...

I do find it amusing that the most direct and specific evidence for the whereabouts of the engine room come from the same contradictory episode, "Day of the Dove" and it can be used to support both locations with equal enthusiasm!

Indeed. Although it's in no way contradictory if one chooses one camp or the other and sticks to it.

Is there any evidence in TOS that deck 1 is at the top of the ship?

I don't think there is. However, episodes like "Let This Be Your Last Battlefield" strongly support the notion that deck numbers increase from top down; the two clowns leave the bridge, then proceed through Deck 3 to Deck 5.

Other episodes might support different notions; in "Balance of Terror", a seemingly interminable turbolift ride from the bridge down is supposed to take the Romulan captive to Deck 2 - so perhaps the writer thought that the brigs (including the luxury one promised to the Romulan) would be at the very bottom of the ship?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

That line was taken a little out of context. Given the choice I would prefer a nuTrek manual over an old one. I think that's a fair choice considering I'm a big fan of last year's film.

The specific era I had in mind when I made that post was the TNG/DS9/VOY one anyway.

I don't mind admitting that making TOS blueprints doesn't appeal to me as much as it does to you, but that doesn't mean I can't pass comment on them. Even if I take "evidence" from episodes with the same pinch of salt I take the various published blueprints and manuals.

CRA: I just noticed the staircase up the neck! I like it - one hell of a climb!

 

[scotpens]

Other episodes might support different notions; in "Balance of Terror", a seemingly interminable turbolift ride from the bridge down is supposed to take the Romulan captive to Deck 2 - so perhaps the writer thought that the brigs (including the luxury one promised to the Romulan) would be at the very bottom of the ship?

No Romulans were taken captive in "Balance of Terror." I assume you're referring to "The Enterprise Incident."

After the Romulan commander volunteered to take her place in the brig, Kirk said she would be escorted to her quarters -- by which I assumed he meant an unoccupied cabin, though under guard, of course. The turbolift, as always, moved at the speed of the dialogue.

 

[Captain Robert April]

"The Ultimate Computer" also refers to which decks are crew quarters.

By the time of the second season, they had a clearer picture of where things were, whereas with "Mudd's Women", which was only the second regular episode filmed, they were still a bit fuzzy on the details.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Then again, Deck 3 is an impressively logical place for the quarters of the top officers and their closest aides. It's sort of traditional for them to live in the superstructure of the ship; it makes for rapid commuting; and Deck 3 is now supported by McCoy's "Man Trap" doorsign and Spock's ST2 address.

Sure, but I don't think that McCoy's cabin (3F-127) is on deck 3 based on "Man Trap"? Unless you assume "F" means "floor" which isn't supported by any evidence. For one thing, the levels are always referred to as "decks" or "levels" never "floors" and for another thing, Janice Rand's cabin is designated "3C-96" so the letter here obviously refers to an area of the ship, not "floor", this is also consistent with other usages of letter-number combos in the series, to designate sections of the ship.

After that, it's a contest between Decks 3 and 5, the latter of which only enjoys support from "Journey to Babel". And we know from "Elaan of Troyius" that the ship is short on luxury quarters. With 114 assorted delegates aboard in "Journey to Babel", it would be no wonder if Kirk got evicted from his standard quarters...

I'll have to double check, but I thought in addition to "Journey to Babel" and "Elaan of Troyius", "Mirror Mirror" also supported the deck five location?

In any event, I don’t think the wall plaques designating cabins in TOS included deck levels, since presumably, you should already know what deck you’re on? Only a search of the ship library computer would include the addition of a deck reference number for a given crew cabin, something like this for Kirk’s cabin... "5/3F-121", where "5" would be the deck, "3" would be the "ring" (as in Shaw's scheme) "F" would then be the section or sector of the ship (pie shaped slices, of which there would be at least eight, for the saucer) and "121" would be the individual cabin number? This way, Dr. McCoy's cabin could be just down the hall from Kirk's, which makes sense, so howzabout them apples?

To get back on topic though, the engineering sections were designated “18Y through 23B” in “The Enemy Within”, if memory serves, good luck rationalizing that!

 

[Noname Given]

Very interesting - been watching since 1969; and I always thought those were the Impulse Engines behing the 'screen' in Engineering - putting it in the 'rear' of the Primary Hull (Saucer).

But - based on the above, looks like I was incorrect.

 

[Maurice]

Aren't locations in navy ships in the format of deck:frame:compartment? If so, maybe McCoy's cabin 3F-127 means frame 3, compartment 127 of whatever deck it is.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Aren't locations in navy ships in the format of deck:frame:compartment?

Just about. Clicky.

 

[Timo]

Sure, but I don't think that McCoy's cabin (3F-127) is on deck 3 based on "Man Trap"? Unless you assume "F" means "floor" which isn't supported by any evidence.

No, I don't. And obviously 3 would be the deck. F or C could be the sector of that deck (a very useful coordinate in a generally saucer-shaped hull), or something else analogous to the "frame numbers". Probably the word Starfleet uses would be "section", though, as that's how locations are identified in e.g. "The Enemy Within" or "The Naked Time". 127 or 96 would be the specific number identifying each space, with the bridge probably being 1.

The other way this would make "sense" would be if F denoted Deck 6, like C apparently denotes Deck 3 in ST2:TWoK... But I really like the idea of the top officers being accommodated in the superstructure, because that gives extra credibility to the idea that there'd be relatively few people around on those corridors. (That's essential for parts of the plot of ST6...)

the engineering sections were designated “18Y through 23B” in “The Enemy Within"

Ah... Where?

I thought in addition to "Journey to Babel" and "Elaan of Troyius", "Mirror Mirror" also supported the deck five location?

Hmh? In "Elaan", the only time Deck 5 is mentioned is when Kirk wants to take Elaan to sickbay. And to be sure, in "Mirror, Mirror" its the Mirror Chekov who punches in Deck 5 when Kirk says he wants to go to his quarters. So, Mirror quarters, and not necessarily the same as the regular ones.

In any event, I don’t think the wall plaques designating cabins in TOS included deck levels, since presumably, you should already know what deck you’re on?

Sounds unlikely. Why wouldn't the signage be complete? Its function would be to guide the clueless or to provide location fixes in emergencies. McCoy wouldn't need the sign to find his cabin - but a crewman spotting one of those pesky subspace vacuoles next to the door should be able to get specific location info for his report without consulting a map.

And other incarnations of Trek (as well as many real-world counterparts) have deck numbers painted on the walls of the corridors with man-sized lettering...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mytran]

the engineering sections were designated “18Y through 23B” in “The Enemy Within"

Ah... Where?

I think it was in Court Martial

 

[Timo]

No Romulans were taken captive in "Balance of Terror." I assume you're referring to "The Enterprise Incident." After the Romulan commander volunteered to take her place in the brig, Kirk said she would be escorted to her quarters -- by which I assumed he meant an unoccupied cabin, though under guard, of course. The turbolift, as always, moved at the speed of the dialogue.

Quite true. The episode misnaming was a goof, but as for the other aspects, I tried to put a specific spin to them as they might be read as evidence for a different way of thinking about the deck numbers. Personally, I much prefer the idea that guest quarters (say, a visiting flag officer's room, adjoining the big conference room we glimpsed in "The Cage") would be on the deck directly below the bridge, while other top officers would live on the deck below that.

And while the turbolift scene is a long one, we don't have to think that the turbolift ride itself was particularly long. We only glimpse something like two flashes from the "moves down" indicator light on the back of the cabin before the camera moves to doing closeups on Spock and the Commander; the lift sound ceases, and we cannot see any evidence of movement. Probably Spock simply drove down one deck, then halted the lift without opening the doors, so that the private conversation could be had. (The only known controls for the lift seem to be those handles down at waist level, and we cannot see what Spock is doing with his hands, or at that level, although probably nothing too dirty.)

I think it was in Court Martial

Interesting. Yeah, that's where they finally locate Finney:

Spock: "B deck, in or near engineering."
Kirk: "Seal off B deck, sections 18Y through 23D"

The concept of a "B deck" is problematic, since it's highly unlikely to be above the "C deck" of ST2:TWoK fame. The section numbers don't present much of a problem, though: we could for example follow the pattern I speculated for McCoy's door number, so that 3F 129 means room 129 in the F section of deck 3. Kirk would thus be ordering all the decks in the engineering hull from 18 to 23 (arguably the lowest deck one can fit there if following the modern deck height idea of 11 decks in the saucer) to be sealed off. Kirk would know his ship well enough that he could decide sections 18A through 18X need not be sealed, nor sections 23F through 23Z. Perhaps those areas needed to be left unsealed for Kirk's own movement?

One might then further argue that when Spock says "B deck" he is in fact saying "Finney is on a B deck", which is a logically coarse first estimate; Finney is not on an A deck (that is, a primary hull deck) and can be established to be hiding in the B part (the secondary hull) of the ship, yet the system cannot specify the exact deck or location. Hence Kirk seas off six decks, and the hunt is on...

Note that neither McCoy nor Spock can assist Kirk in further locating Finney; they don't offer advice via intercom as Kirk moves down the corridors. Probably the sound isolation trick thus has very low accuracy, and its only practical use was telling Kirk two things he already knew (Finney is alive, and he's hiding in the lower decks) while convincing Kirk's audience of the former fact.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Robert April]

Sure, but I don't think that McCoy's cabin (3F-127) is on deck 3 based on "Man Trap"? Unless you assume "F" means "floor" which isn't supported by any evidence.

No, I don't. And obviously...

Obvious to who? We're talking random numbers and letters on a plaque at a time when they still weren't completely sure about the layout of the ship. In fact, I'm pretty sure one of those plaques started off life on the side of the command chair in the second pilot, right under the gooseneck viewer.

 

[F. King Daniel]

All this talk of mysterious lettered decks: Aren't they just alternatives to the numbers? Didn't the TMP Enterprise (as well as the NX01) have decks A, B, C instead of 1, 2, 3, etc? When Spock said the lifts are inoperative below C deck in STII, I assumed he meant deck 3. I thought they just randomly hopped between designations in TOS and the early movies. Am I missing something?

As for Finney on B deck, maybe he was working his way around the ships' between-deck crawlspaces and jeffries tubes on his way to the mysterious transient engine room?

 

[F. King Daniel]

(this has been a bad day for me and double posts )

 

[Maurice]

The was no mention of alphabetically marked decks in TMP, that was TWOK. I believe the only deck number mentioned in that film is when the Intruder Alert alarm sounds and Chekov reports, "Deck 5m Captain. Officer's quarters!" And Kirk says to have security, "meet me at deck five, main elevator."

 

[Captain Robert April]

Look familiar?

Actually, it looks like they just had a bunch of these nondescript labels done up and stuck 'em up on those odd occasions where they were needed.

 

[Mytran]

Then there's the one outside sickbay in The Changeling:

Previously it had said "Astro-Medicine Ward 4" or similar.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

The was no mention of alphabetically marked decks in TMP, that was TWOK. I believe the only deck number mentioned in that film is when the Intruder Alert alarm sounds and Chekov reports, "Deck 5m Captain. Officer's quarters!" And Kirk says to have security, "meet me at deck five, main elevator."

There's also when Kirk, Decker, and McCoy head down to Kirk's cabin for the reaming after the asteroid incident. After stepping into the turbolift, Kirk says, "Deck 5."