Where was the Enterprise during the Dominion War?

[Prax]

I think only Enterprise was concerned with cancellation. They had their budget cut for season 3, and were facing cancellation at the end of that season, but were given one additional season with a further reduced budget.

DS9 and Voy both had their budgets expanded a few times throughout each series.

 

[USS Firefly]

People were complaining that O'Brien was in DS9?? Who are these people and how do we punish them?

We find and destroy them, and maybe their country

 

[Tomalak]

I never heard that they were treatened with cancelation, where did you get that information?

That's what I was thinking. I've never heard any threat of cancellation, but the studio obviously did want to shake up the show in the fourth season.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I never heard that they were treatened with cancelation, where did you get that information?

Just looking at the ratings of DS9 and VOY compared to TNG. As well as the heel turn both DS9 and VOY took in their the fourth seasons.

Way of the Warrior and Scorpion were relaunches of their respective show. Since neither were really setting the world on fire compared to TNG. With each show's respective fourth season, there was a considerable effort to maximize action and reduce things people weren't responding to well.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Bajoran melodrama episodes of the week, dick dastardly Dukat schemes were reduced. Replaced with making the Klingons full time bad guys again, escalating tensions with the Jem'Hadar and Founders, and doing more with the Maqui than VOY ever did. Adding Worf was also a shot in the arm for the show.

For VOY, it was adding Seven of Nine and making the Borg the ever present boogie man. Even when VOY was pushed out of Borg space at least twice (The Gift and Dark Frontier). VOY became the Seven, Doctor and Janeway show from seasons 4-6. With Chakotay, Harry, Neelix, Tuvok, and B'Elanna falling into the background. Where previously they had been prevalent. Kes was kicked off the show and the writers never ran out of things to make Tom Paris an expert at. Add in the Hirogen, Tom's holodeck programs and a lot of time travel episodes, and you have the new and improved VOY.


I may have been wrong when I spoke about DS9 being threatened with cancellation. I recall a lot of negative press about it's performance. Mainly because it was competing with other Trek shows during it's run (TNG and then VOY), and other scifi shows (Babylon 5 and Andromeda). VOY struggled too, but as VOY was flagship show of Paramount's UPN channel. There was more energy put into it, to make sure it didn't fail.

 

[Crewman6]

Way of the Warrior and Scorpion were relaunches of their respective show. Since neither were really setting the world on fire compared to TNG. With each show's respective fourth season, there was a considerable effort to maximize action and reduce things people weren't responding to well.

Like I mentioned earlier, the Bajoran melodrama episodes of the week, dick dastardly Dukat schemes were reduced. Replaced with making the Klingons full time bad guys again, escalating tensions with the Jem'Hadar and Founders, and doing more with the Maqui than VOY ever did. Adding Worf was also a shot in the arm for the show.

Saying that Season 4 of Deep Space Nine was a "relaunch" is a wild and absurd overstatement.

Yes, it introduced Worf and yes it reintroduced the Klingons as enemies. Certainly those ideas were meant to draw in new viewers, no argument.

"Way of the Warrior" was obviously a big, splashy two part premiere which launched a (limited) Klingon war and brought Worf into the fold.

But, come on, to say that the show shifted directions is just patently untrue. Yes, Bajoran politics had been largely dropped after Season 2 for the most part and yes, this was in response to studio notes. They felt those stories weren't particularly compelling so the producers mostly moved on from them, except when it came to Emissary-centric stories or keeping Winn in the fold as a recurring villain.

But look at the episode list for Season 4. What do you see? More of the same. Ferengi episodes, Maquis episodes, episodes about Dukat and/or the Cardassians, a sprinkling of sci-fi of course, and a lot of attention paid to the rising tensions with the Dominion. The Klingon War becomes nothing more than more background noise and there isn't a single episode or A-story that focuses on it exclusively, unless we count "Return to Grace" (which is really about Dukat) and "Rules of Engagement", by which time the war had already trickled into a kind of stalemate. The Klingon War only becomes a major component of an episode one more time in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" before it's quietly put away in "By Inferno's Light."

The writers admit that the Klingon War got them off track from the Dominion story somewhat, but really, look at Season 4. That season's major moments have nothing to do with the war and Worf really doesn't do much of significance that year at all after WotW. Ramping up tensions with the Dominion was always the plan, it was never any kind of course correction the writers happened upon in Season 4 (just look at Season 3!)

As for "Dastardly Dukat" episodes....I'm hard pressed to think of what you could possibly be talking about. Fortunately, it was very easy to move away from a non-existent trend.

 

[Tomalak]

It's true that both shows pushed back their intended cliffhangers/openers - for DS9 it was due to be Homefront and Paradise Lost (the Changelings are everywhere!), and Voyager planned Year of Hell.

The Klingons and Worf were enforced from upon high, but ultimately it didn't change the course of the series much. After WotW, the Klingon conflict doesn't really have much impact on the show until the end of the season. There are only a handful of Klingon episodes. Meanwhile, the show continued pretty much as planned.

The publicity was obviously helpful and Worf's addition gave people who had previously dismissed the show another reason to check it out. It was a publicity relaunch rather than a thematic one. They didn't drop any characters or ongoing stories, they just added a new one.

 

[Amasov]

Yeah they really thought that fans where idiots

They realllllly did.

But, oddly enough, the Enterprise-E as well as the Enterprise-A and refit were the only instances of their respective class that we saw.

Had a Sovereign class starship showed up on DS9, sure, fans would have thought it was the Enterprise. But, that's why they either write in a line to specifically identify that ship or at least do a camera pan over the hull to see the name and registry.

 

[Amasov]

Had Insurrection been a Dominion War story, I forsee two potential issues as far as its relationship to DS9.

DS9 had a much more personal stake in the Dominion War as they were the ones to first encounter the Dominion and see everything go to hell. In some way, they played in role in the war starting up. While I have no doubt that Picard and his crew were fighting the Dominion, I do doubt that they would have dealt with Dukat, Weyoun, and the founders. The Enterprise was one ship out of many.

Secondly, with that in mind, you would've had to identify a villain for the movie and, again, while I have serious doubts that it would've been anyone that we've seen on DS9, the villain would have an agenda to crush the Federation and destroy Earth -- as nearly every single villain in the Star Trek films does. This would also imply there were Dominion villains yielding just as much power as the ones we saw on DS9, which would then call into question, "Why haven't we seen this person on DS9? Or at least heard their names mentioned?" You also have to kill off that villain in a big way at the end of the film. No way in hell would it have been one of the baddies on DS9.

DS9 was the one that called the shots on the Dominion War since it was their story arc. Berman and the rest of the staff on the film would've been beholden to what was happening on that show. Additionally, this movie needs to cater to a general audience by assuming a fair amount of moviegoers weren't familiar with the events on DS9.

While Picard and his crew no doubt know who the Dominion are, they didn't have relationship with them like the crew of DS9 did and it wouldn't make for a compelling story. Dropping a villainous group of characters from one Trek show with a history with them to another that doesn't offer much in the way of dramatic storytelling.

While we may all have differing opinions of the Trek films, by the time we reached the TNG era had gotten extremely formulaic. And while a film focusing on an aspect of the Dominion war may sound exciting, with Berman behind the wheel, it's a film that would've played it very safe and would've had zero impact on what happened with the war on DS9.

It may very well have turned out to be a better film than Insurrection, but, I have doubts it would've been much of an improvement,

 

[Timo]

The novels got around this by inventing singular missions witth singular scary threat forces that popped up and were immediately smacked back down by Picard's Heroes. Thwarting an attempt to create a second wormhole took just 288 pages in Behind Enemy Lines, say.

Conversely, not many outside DS9 would have noticed most of the exploits of Sisko's Heroes, or the specific villains involved. Dukat, Weyoun and the Female Founder could always loom on the background, but inventing and immediately killing a throwaway "Director Krennic" for a throwaway spinoff adventure would have been simple enough.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[saladdays]

People were complaining that O'Brien was in DS9?? Who are these people and how do we punish them?

I've heard people complain that O'Brien and Worf were just taken from TNG and placed in DS9, but not necessarily while saying that they didn't like O'Brien (or Worf). I think you can think the characters were shoehorned into DS9 but still enjoy them at the same time.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

Saying that Season 4 of Deep Space Nine was a "relaunch" is a wild and absurd overstatement.

Yes, it introduced Worf and yes it reintroduced the Klingons as enemies. Certainly those ideas were meant to draw in new viewers, no argument.

"Way of the Warrior" was obviously a big, splashy two part premiere which launched a (limited) Klingon war and brought Worf into the fold.

But, come on, to say that the show shifted directions is just patently untrue. Yes, Bajoran politics had been largely dropped after Season 2 for the most part and yes, this was in response to studio notes. They felt those stories weren't particularly compelling so the producers mostly moved on from them, except when it came to Emissary-centric stories or keeping Winn in the fold as a recurring villain.

But look at the episode list for Season 4. What do you see? More of the same. Ferengi episodes, Maquis episodes, episodes about Dukat and/or the Cardassians, a sprinkling of sci-fi of course, and a lot of attention paid to the rising tensions with the Dominion. The Klingon War becomes nothing more than more background noise and there isn't a single episode or A-story that focuses on it exclusively, unless we count "Return to Grace" (which is really about Dukat) and "Rules of Engagement", by which time the war had already trickled into a kind of stalemate. The Klingon War only becomes a major component of an episode one more time in "Nor the Battle to the Strong" before it's quietly put away in "By Inferno's Light."

The writers admit that the Klingon War got them off track from the Dominion story somewhat, but really, look at Season 4. That season's major moments have nothing to do with the war and Worf really doesn't do much of significance that year at all after WotW. Ramping up tensions with the Dominion was always the plan, it was never any kind of course correction the writers happened upon in Season 4 (just look at Season 3!)

As for "Dastardly Dukat" episodes....I'm hard pressed to think of what you could possibly be talking about. Fortunately, it was very easy to move away from a non-existent trend.

Relaunch =/= course correction. Nearly all Berman era Treks revamped themselves during their 3rd and 4th seasons.

Best of Both Worlds (TNG), Way of the Warrior (DS9), Scorpion (VOY) and ENT's 4th season were all status quo shake ups for each respective series.

TNG was super popular at the time. Keeping that gravy train rolling was no question. Coupled with Gene's declining health and Berman being the new big boss. The writers and producers were allowed to flesh out the cast and do more with the concept. BOBW helped define the show TNG became going forward.

WOTW and Scorpion were new jumping on points for viewers. Second pilot episodes, if you will. Like BOBW, these episodes helped redefine what the show was going to be throughout the rest of their 7 season run.

ENT heel turn began in season 3. Dumping the Temporal Cold War arc, recurring villains and Future Guy. For the newly invented Xindi arc. A shot in the arm to inspire intrigue in a show that was hurting. Like TNG, DS9 and VOY before it, season 4 was the relaunch of the show. With the new direction focusing on being a prequel to TOS. You know, the thing ENT was supposed to have been since season 1.

 

[Crewman6]

Relaunch =/= course correction. Nearly all Berman era Treks revamped themselves during their 3rd and 4th seasons.

Best of Both Worlds (TNG), Way of the Warrior (DS9), Scorpion (VOY) and ENT's 4th season were all status quo shake ups for each respective series.

TNG was super popular at the time. Keeping that gravy train rolling was no question. Coupled with Gene's declining health and Berman being the new big boss. The writers and producers were allowed to flesh out the cast and do more with the concept. BOBW helped define the show TNG became going forward.

WOTW and Scorpion were new jumping on points for viewers. Second pilot episodes, if you will. Like BOBW, these episodes helped redefine what the show was going to be throughout the rest of their 7 season run.

ENT heel turn began in season 3. Dumping the Temporal Cold War arc, recurring villains and Future Guy. For the newly invented Xindi arc. A shot in the arm to inspire intrigue in a show that was hurting. Like TNG, DS9 and VOY before it, season 4 was the relaunch of the show. With the new direction focusing on being a prequel to TOS. You know, the thing ENT was supposed to have been since season 1.

Then how are you defining "relauch"? If by that you mean a splashy two-part episode designed to attract viewers, sure.

But TNG and DS9 didn't fundamentally change as a result of those big events at all. Almost every show does big "event" style episodes from time to time to goose viewership and try to attract a bigger audience.

But it's disingenuous to say the show(s) were fundamentally altered as a result of those event episodes.

 

[Crewman6]

I've heard people complain that O'Brien and Worf were just taken from TNG and placed in DS9, but not necessarily while saying that they didn't like O'Brien (or Worf). I think you can think the characters were shoehorned into DS9 but still enjoy them at the same time.

Worf, sure, since he was a major character on TNG and was added midway through the series and his Starfleet job was altered from "security guy" to, um, "vaguely defined second officer who spends a lot of time on the Defiant."

But, come on, anyone complaining about O'Brien is a straight up moron. He was a very minor character on TNG who spent 90% of his screen time pushing buttons with only the very rare moment where he briefly stepped into the spotlight in episodes like "The Wounded."

Bringing O'Brien into DS9 was a very organic thing to do, particularly given how his character with the Cardassians gave him a rich backstory to mine with DS9's new universe. In no way could you ever say he was "shoehorned in."

 

[Tomalak]

Hey that's not fair, he went from "guy who stands at the back of the bridge and fires phasers" to "guy who stands at the back of Ops and fires phasers". That's career development.

 

[suarezguy]

Even more baffling is Ira's unbelievably off base "prediction" about what the next year of DS9 was going to look like. Seriously, he thought the war would just settle into a boring "stalemate"? That makes absolutely no sense. Thankfully, it's not what the show actually became, but sheesh...

It kind of did before and when Insurrection was released. A lot of Season 7 episodes in the first two-thirds and especially the middle didn't focus on it, did suggest it was a stalemate or even the Federation was improving its position. So much so that the beginning of The Final Chapter arc had Sisko anticipating being able to move to Bajor when the war was over (a win and probably not too far away) and it had to add the Breen to the war to to get it back to bad guys-unstoppably-winning-crisis level.

 

[Prax]

Maybe the Dominion war just wasn't as huge as it was made out to be. It seemed that it was primarily carried out by Admiral Ross. They had all those strategic meetings right on DS9 with no other brass around.

 

[Timo]

Well, DS9 was a minor side show in the war (except during the opening hours when the wormhole still was a factor, and during the final hours when the Dominion presence in Alpha was at last reduced to Bajor's next door neighbor star system).

During WWII, there would have been many similar scenes. Say, we would see small-scale offensives and withdrawals and all manner of daring special operations being planned and executed in Burma even though the real battles raged elsewhere and made it impossible to deliver decisive resources to the Burmese theater. In theory, Burma would be key to providing reinforcements to China via a route of utmost strategic importance. In practice, that route could not be used, so the real war was decided somewhere else altogether.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Prax]

The Dominion seemed to be confined to Cardassian territory except for one or two offensives that we hear about.

They lose DS9 as soon as they captured it. By the end of Season 6, they seem to be surrounded in the Cardassians solar system(?). All of season 7 involves the costly slow conquest of Cardassian space.

 

[Timo]

Then again, the Dominion operated in Romulan space, supposedly on the other side of the war theater entirely - behind the backs of the heroes. The War Room wall chart is drawn with this in mind, with Cardassia labeled on the left, Bajor in the middle, and the Romulan symbol appearing on the extreme right of the map when the issue of their involvement arises.

On the same vein, a breakthrough at Betazed has the UFP core threatened from the Vulcan side, which in terms of real-world astrography would be to the lower right of Earth (let alone Bajor) in the map that has Cardassia to the left. We never see Vulcan on any DS9 map, but other onscreen maps confirm the lower-right thing (that is, the 40 Eridani A identity for Vulcan's star). Make of that what you will, but a sweeping conquest from lower left to lower right, from Cardassia towards Romulus, would be matched by that series of elongated amber lines that in the War Room map are constantly crossed by red arrows piercing out or blue arrows pushing back...

"Territory" and "battle lines" might be fairly irrelevant concepts in Trek-style warfare where every ship is its own logistics center and self-replenishes all its consumables save for crew. Yet the heroes speak of "supply lines" anyway. So did the Dominion conquer enough space to establish supply lines not only past Bajor, but all the way through former UFP territory to the general Romulan side of things? Or was that merely their ambitious intent?

Geoff Mandel's Star Charts gives its own interpretation of the onscreen maps. Larry Nemecek expands on that in the Stellar Cartography set, drawing parallels to Earth's wars in his commentary at TrekCore. Many other takes are possible.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Crewman6]

The Dominion seemed to be confined to Cardassian territory except for one or two offensives that we hear about.

They lose DS9 as soon as they captured it. By the end of Season 6, they seem to be surrounded in the Cardassians solar system(?). All of season 7 involves the costly slow conquest of Cardassian space.

Um, no. The Dominion was conquering large swaths of the Alpha Quadrant, including Federation space. Betazed was specifically mentioned as one of the Federation worlds that fell to the Dominion.

The Dominion was kicking total ass at least until "In the Pale Moonlight", which was late into Season 6.