Where No Man Has Gone Before

[Vger23]

Yeah...let's be fair. Kirk isn't above ending someone or something when his emotions get the best of him. Regardless of what "universe" he's from. That's just rose-colored glasses looking into the past

He wasn't about to offer help to the Dikronium Cloud creature, he actively campaigned to destroy the Salt Vampire..hell, he kicked Kruge off the cliff into a fucking lava river.

Nero was a genocidal maniac who was responsible for killing his father and destroying an entire Federation Planet. He offered to help, Nero told him to bugger off, he merely expedited the Narada's destruction, as it was already going down. In fact, he would have put the Enterprise in excessive danger by mounting an (undesired) rescue.

I say blow him to hell, regardless of "Gene's Vision" or what universe he is from.

 

[2takesfrakes]

[...] regardless of "Gene's Vision" [...]

 

[Kor]

"Gene's vision" was a TNG S1-2 conceit that doesn't have a place in the TOS milieu.

Kor

 

[Poltargyst]

Yeah...let's be fair. Kirk isn't above ending someone or something when his emotions get the best of him. Regardless of what "universe" he's from. That's just rose-colored glasses looking into the past

He wasn't about to offer help to the Dikronium Cloud creature, he actively campaigned to destroy the Salt Vampire..hell, he kicked Kruge off the cliff into a fucking lava river.

Nero was a genocidal maniac who was responsible for killing his father and destroying an entire Federation Planet. He offered to help, Nero told him to bugger off, he merely expedited the Narada's destruction, as it was already going down. In fact, he would have put the Enterprise in excessive danger by mounting an (undesired) rescue.

I say blow him to hell, regardless of "Gene's Vision" or what universe he is from.

I didn't say Kirk wouldn't use force, and I didn't say Kirk wouldn't kill if he felt he needed to. But he uses the minimum amount of force necessary. If he ends up killing the badguy, it's because that was the minimum force necessary. The cloud creature, the salt creature, Kruge, Kirk didn't see another option. A helpless Romulan ship being pulled into a black hole? Doesn't seem like Kirk HAD to kill them.

 

[2takesfrakes]

"Gene's vision" was a TNG S1-2 conceit that doesn't have a place in the TOS milieu.

Kor

... Holy Shat!

 

[Vger23]

I didn't say Kirk wouldn't use force, and I didn't say Kirk wouldn't kill if he felt he needed to. But he uses the minimum amount of force necessary. If he ends up killing the badguy, it's because that was the minimum force necessary. The cloud creature, the salt creature, Kruge, Kirk didn't see another option. A helpless Romulan ship being pulled into a black hole? Doesn't seem like Kirk HAD to kill them.

The Narada was finished anyway. Kirk offered help, had every intention of providing it. Nero told him to shit in his hat. Torpedoes away.

Moreover, there was evidence that the black holes could lead to other times, thus running the risk of Nero surviving and popping out somewhere else. Kirk did what he had to do in this context.

You can't help someone who isn't interested in help. Just ask the drug or AA councelor.

 

[Marsden]

ST 09 is not my forte by any means, but I think Pine Kirk might have been offering to beam those "Romulans" off that monstrosity before shooting the torpedoes. He said no and they went boom.

The creature from planet M-113 was more interested in murder and deceit and wouldn't have been able to be negotiated with, the Vampiric Cloud that ate half of the Farragut's crew was sentient but not apparently sapient, or refused to communicate in any direct manner and negotiations were impossible. And he only kicked John Bigboote in the face after he grabbed his leg to try to pull him down.

Sorry Vger23 if I sound argumentative but I don't see a difference about those items you sited and what the other posters were saying. Kirk has this bizarre reputation for shooting things first but while he never cowered from action he never used it capriciously. He offered to beam the Romulan Commander's survivors aboard, too, until he activated his self-destruct device.

 

[Poltargyst]

The Narada was finished anyway. Kirk offered help, had every intention of providing it. Nero told him to shit in his hat. Torpedoes away.

Moreover, there was evidence that the black holes could lead to other times, thus running the risk of Nero surviving and popping out somewhere else. Kirk did what he had to do in this context.

You can't help someone who isn't interested in help. Just ask the drug or AA councelor.

The threat to other times is an interesting point, but were there other options besides destroying them?

 

[Poltargyst]

ST 09 is not my forte by any means, but I think Pine Kirk might have been offering to beam those "Romulans" off that monstrosity before shooting the torpedoes.

For example.

 

[Vger23]

The threat to other times is an interesting point, but were there other options besides destroying them?

Probably can't beam them out, as the distortions from the gravity well would be intense. Any other option would have put the Enterprise at grave risk. They'd likely need to cooperate with Nero to have any chance of success, and since he'd rather die, that was off the table.

In a way, it's a lot like the end of "Balance of Terror" The Romulans Commander refuses Kirk's offer to help, and Kirk allows him to die by his own hand.

 

[Timo]

The other Kirk also offers to save the other Khan at Mutara ("Prepare to be boarded"), despite the dangerous circumstances and great risk to his own ship. But Khan there not only refuses help/capture, but lashes back with the Genesis bomb.

Nero was in the middle of dangerous circumstances as well. Unlike Lenard's character, he didn't have the intent of blowing himself up. But unlike Montalban's character, he didn't make the circumstances suddenly more dangerous to Kirk, either. So there are two separate factors at play affecting the decision of whether to fire at a stranded but still dangerous Khan or not - impending suicide and impending striking back. Which of these should sway our Kirks more?

Acting on both is rational enough. It's just that killing a guy for failing to commit suicide doesn't look particularly good, even though that's the bread and butter of a soldier's job, whenever "failing to commit suicide" is the same as "failing to capitulate". Which is true on many battlefields, much of the time.

Also, it's not as if Nero had the means to blow up anything, for suicide or for revenge. So refusal to accept help is his one effective way to do the Lenard thing, while he has no effective way to do the Montalban thing. Except accepting help and thus perhaps making Kirk linger until everything is lost... So in a way, Kirk is negating a threat to himself. But by turning his back, not by firing at Nero; the latter thing is only relevant in the putative protection of other times and places.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Noname Given]

Early trek was plenty dark, Ive often wonder if the revisionists have actually watched the show, or if they’ve just latched on this Gene’s vision thing and believe that if they repeat it enough it will become true.

Yep the first season was quite dark is spots:
"Charlie X" - Charlie casually destroys the S.S. Antares. All hands lost. He also tortures crewmembers an makes some 'go away' (but in the end, the Thasians restore them.)

"Balance of Terror" - Four Earth Outposts completely obliterated.

"Arena" - Cestus III outpost (with Women and children) wiped out completed; and fake messages lure the 1701 in so the Gorn can access/learn Federation tactics to better fight against them.

"Errand of Mercy" - Organia occupied by Klingons who execute 200 Organians due to the actions of Kirk/Spock (Yes, they're all energy beings; but the Klingons didn't know that when carrying out the executions per their standard procedure.)

"Devil In The Dark" - 1701 called in only after numerous miners have died grusome deaths due to a creature that seers its victims to a crisp.

"Return of the Archons" - Kirk and Co. beam into a society that once every few months a Computer (who controls everyone) has a 'Festival' where it allows them to maim, rape, loot, and kill each other (one assumes to release their pent up passion/aggression); and then they go back to their 'peaceful' existence.

"Operation: Annihilate" - Kirk needs to seriously contemplate killing a entire colony to stop the spread of an alien life form that has wiped out numerous civilizations before arriving there.

Yes, TOS was NOTHING but lighthearted/campy fun, doing nothing but showing mankind at it's absolute best; always happy/peaceful - and just exploring for the wonder of it all...NOT!

ETA: Corrected the species in my 'Charlie X' summary (My bad - hey they both start with a 'T' - thanks Maurice.)

 

[Maurice]

"Charlie X" - Charlie casually destroys the S.S. Antares. All hands lost. He also tortures crewmembers an makes some 'go away' (but in the end, the Talosians restore them.)

Thasians.

 

[johnnybear]

Thasians.

There is no life on Thasus!!!
JB

 

[FreddyE]

I think that people take Gene Roddenberry's vision too far .

Could we maybe...put that myth about Roddenberry´s vision to rest? Its one he himself created after the fact. But as far as I know...he didn´t have one..at least not at the time of where no man...he was just making a good TV show nothing more an nothing less. The whole concept about Star Trek beeing this big utopian vision didn´t start before TNG AFAIK...

 

[TrickyDickie]

Maybe it's better to say something like "peoples' misunderstood notion of what they think Gene's vision was from the beginning".

 

[mb22]

Could we maybe...put that myth about Roddenberry´s vision to rest? Its one he himself created after the fact. But as far as I know...he didn´t have one..at least not at the time of where no man...he was just making a good TV show nothing more an nothing less. The whole concept about Star Trek being this big utopian vision didn´t start before TNG AFAIK...

It began in the 1970s, when he was giving his speeches at conventions and colleges. Read Letters to Star Trek (1977) and other books and articles of the time.

 

[Kor]

Yep the first season was quite dark is spots:
"Charlie X" - Charlie casually destroys the S.S. Antares. All hands lost. He also tortures crewmembers an makes some 'go away' (but in the end, the Thasians restore them.)

"Balance of Terror" - Four Earth Outposts completely obliterated.

"Arena" - Cestus III outpost (with Women and children) wiped out completed; and fake messages lure the 1701 in so the Gorn can access/learn Federation tactics to better fight against them.

"Errand of Mercy" - Organia occupied by Klingons who execute 200 Organians due to the actions of Kirk/Spock (Yes, they're all energy beings; but the Klingons didn't know that when carrying out the executions per their standard procedure.)

"Devil In The Dark" - 1701 called in only after numerous miners have died grusome deaths due to a creature that seers its victims to a crisp.

"Return of the Archons" - Kirk and Co. beam into a society that once every few months a Computer (who controls everyone) has a 'Festival' where it allows them to maim, rape, loot, and kill each other (one assumes to release their pent up passion/aggression); and then they go back to their 'peaceful' existence.

"Operation: Annihilate" - Kirk needs to seriously contemplate killing a entire colony to stop the spread of an alien life form that has wiped out numerous civilizations before arriving there.

Yes, TOS was NOTHING but lighthearted/campy fun, doing nothing but showing mankind at it's absolute best; always happy/peaceful - and just exploring for the wonder of it all...NOT!

ETA: Corrected the species in my 'Charlie X' summary (My bad - hey they both start with a 'T' - thanks Maurice.)

And yet, all of that was actually a joy to watch, unlike some contemporary media that I could mention.

Kor

 

[MAGolding]

Yep the first season was quite dark is spots:
...
"Devil In The Dark" - 1701 called in only after numerous miners have died grusome deaths due to a creature that seers its victims to a crisp.
...
Yes, TOS was NOTHING but lighthearted/campy fun, doing nothing but showing mankind at it's absolute best; always happy/peaceful - and just exploring for the wonder of it all...NOT!

Don't forget that the approximately 52 miners killed are outnumbered by thousands of other deaths.

 

[UnknownSample]

Season one has a very Twilight Zone feel, to me.