So, given the ever lengthening "prep" periods, the show won't be officially "rested" for another 6 to 10 years.
Where do we go from here?
- Thread starter Starkers
- Start date
I think Chibnal cares but it's a mixture of not being a great talent and wanting turn the show into something that isn't really Doctor Who. I mean it's not beyond the realm of possibility of changing something that barely feels like the old source material and the new take being great like say Battlestar Galatica or Watchmen but he simple didn't pull it off.
Jason
South Park has been around since the 90’s. Isn’t than an aging franchise? Not as old as Star Trek and Star Wars, but still pretty darn old.
Sort of but it's also something that hasn't had any spin-offs over the years and is constantly reinventing itself to always be topical. Which in away also makes it kind of dated when looking at the old episodes because they are so connected to the time period in which they were aired.
Jason
This is a tough one. I'm enjoying the show, but not quite as much as I used to. I think Jodie is a fine, capable actress and potentially a strong Doctor, she's just not being given the chance to really show that. I also think Chibnall is able to write well - the Silurian two-parter (thanks for reminding me of it, Nth Doctor!) and Spyfall come readily to mind - but he doesn't seem able to do it consistently - see also, the first two series of Torchwood - and that's a concern.
As I noted in the Timeless Children thread, I believe the storytelling in this Who era so far has been, quite often, perfunctory, most notable in the antagonists who simply walk away the moment they stop being of use to the plot. The fellow killed and forgotten in Praxeus and the convenient appearance of Ko Sharmus at the climax of TC are other clear examples. Things aren't being tied up or set up properly.
Thinking more long-term, a lot of things, possibly too many things, have been left hanging. As much as I know this is a long game, there is a balance to be struck, of answering old questions and posing new ones as you build and build. Babylon 5, for example, excelled at this, but I'm not convinced Chibnall's managing it too well. The more you leave to tie up at the end, the harder it gets to make it work, and make it satisfying.
All that said, this is a long game, so it's difficult to truly judge, and S12 was a distinct step up from S11, so Chibnall is clearly working to improve. The one thing I'd tentatively suggest is getting someone to help him with the arc stuff, to add some more polish, and sweat the details he doesn't seem to be giving enough attention to.
A couple of quick thoughts:-
1) Three companions is, I now agree, too much; spreads the material even thinner.
2) I wonder if the classier visual style isn't actually hampering the show slightly, in that it's frequently pretty, but empty; impressive vistas, but rather lacking in life, static paintings, almost, thus subtly draining a little energy and depth from the show.
All in all, it's good, but not as good as it could and should be, and I'm not entirely sure how to address that.
As I noted in the Timeless Children thread, I believe the storytelling in this Who era so far has been, quite often, perfunctory, most notable in the antagonists who simply walk away the moment they stop being of use to the plot. The fellow killed and forgotten in Praxeus and the convenient appearance of Ko Sharmus at the climax of TC are other clear examples. Things aren't being tied up or set up properly.
Thinking more long-term, a lot of things, possibly too many things, have been left hanging. As much as I know this is a long game, there is a balance to be struck, of answering old questions and posing new ones as you build and build. Babylon 5, for example, excelled at this, but I'm not convinced Chibnall's managing it too well. The more you leave to tie up at the end, the harder it gets to make it work, and make it satisfying.
All that said, this is a long game, so it's difficult to truly judge, and S12 was a distinct step up from S11, so Chibnall is clearly working to improve. The one thing I'd tentatively suggest is getting someone to help him with the arc stuff, to add some more polish, and sweat the details he doesn't seem to be giving enough attention to.
A couple of quick thoughts:-
1) Three companions is, I now agree, too much; spreads the material even thinner.
2) I wonder if the classier visual style isn't actually hampering the show slightly, in that it's frequently pretty, but empty; impressive vistas, but rather lacking in life, static paintings, almost, thus subtly draining a little energy and depth from the show.
All in all, it's good, but not as good as it could and should be, and I'm not entirely sure how to address that.
I vote for crash it into the ground. We have 26 seasons of Classic Doctor Who, 12 seasons of nuWho, OVER 20 years of story at BIG FINISH, over 40 years of novel. HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT!! Honestly both side of the fandom are just entitled children. No show is every going to bring back your youth. Let the past go, Kill it if you have to. -- Best wisdom from Star Wars.
Very nice post @CuriousCaitian I've seen a few people talk about the visuals and I agree, pretty but static, though you could say that about the episodes as a whole, as you say, villains either easily defeated or who just wander off (The guy from Arachnids, Lenny Henry).
I’m really torn on how to vote. Which is silly considering it’s all hypothetical. I’m leaning towards putting the show on hiatus. Let it rest. Make the public hungry for it again.
If I were king of the world, I’d actually change the format of Doctor Who to yearly TV movies. Make it high quality event viewing.
Paul Margs, whose Who fiction I adore, posted on his blog last week his thoughts on how he’d resuscitate the show. He has some interesting ideas. Maybe going old school is just what the show needs?
If I were king of the world, I’d actually change the format of Doctor Who to yearly TV movies. Make it high quality event viewing.
Paul Margs, whose Who fiction I adore, posted on his blog last week his thoughts on how he’d resuscitate the show. He has some interesting ideas. Maybe going old school is just what the show needs?
Another thought that eluded me when writing my last post, but the ones since, @Hennessy Badger's especially, have reminded me of - it feels like Who has to a sizeable degree lost its sense of fun. Beyond the first half of Kablam!, before its dramatic tonal shift, the first few minutes of Orphan 55, before it all went sideways, and stretches of Spyfall part one, the show seems to be taking itself a bit too seriously. It's so keen on being Dramatic and Meaningful it's forgetting to be Enjoyable. Agree or disagree?
I'd agree with that. It is a little po-faced at times. Doesn't mean they can't do serious, but even dark episodes can have a sense of fun. I thought one of the most well balanced episodes of the series, and my fave ep it has to be said, was The Haunting of Villa Diodati, it went to some dark place but did have a sense of fun, especially early on.
I feel Who is focusing too much on being worthy before anything else and it's painful at times. You can get the same messages across without using a sledgehammer, and while making the show fun when it needs to be, scary when it needs to be and meaningful when it needs to be.
Not sure going back to 25 minute episodes would help that much, would this return to the 4/6/8 part serial mode? I guess things like Inside Number 9, Santa Clarita Diet, The Good Place etc show there's still a place for 30 minute comedy/drama hybrids, but on the whole not sure it'd work for Who when you have so much to set up with each new story.
A new Doctor and a new showrunner might be the best option now short of letting Chibnall and Jodie complete a third season and then switching or going for a hiatus. Given we were already expecting an 18 month wait before Corona virus, and given now production/pre production on a whole heap of shows is postponed it might be even longer. It might be a good time to make a switch now. Maybe let Chibnall and Jodie do some specials like Tennant did at the end, meaning they could make these quicker, but they finish with a regeneration and have a new showrunner and a new Doctor arrive in autumn 2022.
This does seem unfair on Jodie mind you.
I guess for he BBC it's a simple choice at the moment stick or twist. I suspect they'll hold their nerve and only time will tell if that's the right move.
I feel Who is focusing too much on being worthy before anything else and it's painful at times. You can get the same messages across without using a sledgehammer, and while making the show fun when it needs to be, scary when it needs to be and meaningful when it needs to be.
Not sure going back to 25 minute episodes would help that much, would this return to the 4/6/8 part serial mode? I guess things like Inside Number 9, Santa Clarita Diet, The Good Place etc show there's still a place for 30 minute comedy/drama hybrids, but on the whole not sure it'd work for Who when you have so much to set up with each new story.
A new Doctor and a new showrunner might be the best option now short of letting Chibnall and Jodie complete a third season and then switching or going for a hiatus. Given we were already expecting an 18 month wait before Corona virus, and given now production/pre production on a whole heap of shows is postponed it might be even longer. It might be a good time to make a switch now. Maybe let Chibnall and Jodie do some specials like Tennant did at the end, meaning they could make these quicker, but they finish with a regeneration and have a new showrunner and a new Doctor arrive in autumn 2022.
This does seem unfair on Jodie mind you.
I guess for he BBC it's a simple choice at the moment stick or twist. I suspect they'll hold their nerve and only time will tell if that's the right move.
We already got Missy.
Time to end the show. It has gotten pretty boring and bland. Though it would be a Sad end to a once great show. It's too long in the tooth now. I can't see it getting any better. Maybe set a new show in the same universe without the Doctor or the group of aliens he now is the beginning of. Lol....
I don't think this show will ever be right again. The only way is to get a new doctor and a new showrunner, who basically undoes what Chibnall did. The writing since Jodie came on board has been terrible, and Jodie has not been good at all. It's sad to see a once great show ruined.
Uh-huh...
Sorry but it's TRUE for many of us. Constant retcons eventually ruin a good show. The last couple have thrown it over the edge. It's not even a shadow of its former greatness.
They could have went into so many directions with this show. They failed on many accounts.
Galifrayians are now sex fluid creatures and the doctor is no longer the rebellious black sheep of his race that he once was portrayed as. He/she is now all of gallifrey. Lol....never thought the show could get sillier. Just a bunch of boring nonsense. Seriously the show has been on fumes for a long while now. Everything has its day in the sun. They need to continue to do spinoffs with different characters and situations. Doctor who has run its course and needs a final ending.
Exactly. They went in a direction that placed wokeness above all else. The ratings tanked. It's not a coincidence. It was a choice. The big reveal at the end of the last season only exacerbated the problem. It's not the same show anymore, so for now at least, I'm likely done too.
Changing gender = not a big deal (for me) and in of itself doesn't demystify or ruin anything.
Especially if they give the characterization some oompf and Chibnall putting far more charisma, backstory, detail... even care?!... into his throwaway incarnation in series 12 than he did for Jodie, the full time and the true throwaway edition as crafted solely by Chibnall, is telling regarding how much he must frothing hate the show. He's not just writer or even head writer but main showrunner. This is 100% his crafting for the series now. The only thing arguably worse is if Doctor Ruth was as horrendously scripted, yet not only wasn't she not badly scripted (good to excellent depending on scene), there's a far more interesting arc (temporal paradox aside)... Which then got revealed in a completely unimaginable way yet not in a good way at the same time.
Deconstructing the origins by saying the Doctor is no longer a maverick off-the-wall renegade (not just as the more common definition of "a joke teller") of her/his own people but is from another magical universe and dimension and popped into ours is cringeworthy all on its own, but having the Gallifreyans engage in the ultimate IP theft with the magical being's DNA via mass murder on top of all that... Which leads to a dichotomy. The first half, the good news, is that the Doctor still is the maverick ((but they can play "universe hopscotch" forevermore and nobody's going to give a toss, especially given how badly Chibnall did it - "the Master programmed a lie into the Matrix" pretty much undoes Chibnall's whole scheme in seconds in a surprisingly less cringeworthy manner, albeit not by much.)) The other half, the bad half, is that Mary Whitehouse would be spinning in her grave and she'd probably be right. At least Chibnall outdid Eric Saward, and by an impressive distance, in using crudity as a plot crutch. At least Saward's era had more depth and less cynicism... is Chibnall trying to give the mid-80s a boost?
One thing's for certain - the complaint of "too many companions" doesn't hold up when shows like "Sliders" made having ensembles of four work.
Not as much "wokeness", but "uninspired, fanwanky and/or hollow storytelling"?
Eh? There's a show called Doctor Who? It's about a physician member of that race in that one Dr. Seuss book? 
