• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Where did the show go wrong?

CPZhdv0.jpg

Actually, yep. The planets-and-aliens-of-the-week formula in VOY was no different than it was in TNG. It even got to the point where Janeway would introduce herself as "Captain Kathryn Janeway of the Federation starship Voyager" and the alien of the week she was talking to would act like they knew exactly what she was talking about.
 
No. The Kazon/Vidiian/Talaxian part of the galaxy felt different than the UFP and their neighbors. And the ones who recognized them only because Kazon spread the word. Once they got past the Nekrit Expanse, nobody had any inkling who they were other than the Borg.

Several episodes from TOS and TNG made it clear that several ancient ( at least two or three) races seeded many worlds around the galaxy, explaining humanoid civilizations everywhere. Why should the Delta Quadrant be any different?
 
No. The Kazon/Vidiian/Talaxian part of the galaxy felt different than the UFP and their neighbors. And the ones who recognized them only because Kazon spread the word. Once they got past the Nekrit Expanse, nobody had any inkling who they were other than the Borg.

Several episodes from TOS and TNG made it clear that several ancient ( at least two or three) races seeded many worlds around the galaxy, explaining humanoid civilizations everywhere. Why should the Delta Quadrant be any different?

Even after they left 'Kazon space' or whatever that meant, aliens that Voyager stumbled across still acted like they knew what Janeway was talking about. Real world explanation: The writers just stopped caring about it. By that time the writing had gotten so episodic that it was like watching TNG all over again.
 
Lets take a look at the Federation, 1000 light years across, according to some..
If your crossing a 1000 light years in a year, without any shortcuts, then you can have an "Alien of the Year" Now them encountering the same alien leader the whole time wouldn't make sense, unless they had a supperior travel method, like subspace tunnels, transwarp, gateways, etc.
Plus.. most of the species seemed to be an equvilent of federation technology, so it goes to say.. why would Alien X bother with the ship in the first place?, maybe you have a complete asshole species that harrasses it just because, but there has to be a reason..
A decent method would be, have an alien species, if they worked out on screen, then u just say there space is vast, if they suck, then you move on in a few episodes..
 
At first, there were no Borgs, no Borgs at alll, but after the Borg first appeared and they went into "Borg Space", then the Borg were everywhere even after Kes pushed them 10,000 light years forward! They were there all the time, up until and including the very last episode!! That's some lopsided space!!
 
At first, there were no Borgs, no Borgs at alll, but after the Borg first appeared and they went into "Borg Space", then the Borg were everywhere even after Kes pushed them 10,000 light years forward! They were there all the time, up until and including the very last episode!! That's some lopsided space!!
Like once per season, maybe 2 or 3 more times if you include coming across abandoned borg ships and what not. I would Imagine there are Borg all over the galaxy, like the places they are found in various TNG episodes. Distances that would take Starfleet years to cross are nothing to the Borg.
 
I have watched Voyager one time, but decided to rewatch it again. While watching the pilot, the show starts off strong. Tom Paris is written very well in this episode and the acting is particularly strong from the actor. Then the writers just decide to not use his character after that. The first 25 minutes of the pilot are strong, probably the best part of the series. After the crew is beamed into the array, the pilot becomes boring and corny.

Why did they even go with the plot of having the Maquis in the show. Why not just have the ship lost and it goes on with the actual Starfleet crew, since the Maquis seem to just suddenly fit in with the crew after no time at all anyway I think the tension between Paris and the established crew (the guys who die) would have made for much more interesting story arcs.

Paris is jaded, right? Why is he asking to pilot Voyager? Watch Duncan McNeill in the mess hall scene:

"They're right, Harry. Stay away from me."
"I don't let anyone choose my friends for me."

He should loathe himself. Or be playing wounded to become friends. Avoiding responsibility by ending the conversation. There is no subtext beneath what he is saying. He's stating it plainly. He's trying to be sarcastic.

That is a pivotal scene. He was written a career-building scene, a repeat on DVD players, like Kirk and Spock, the impetus for their relationship. McNeill dropped the ball. I have watched three episodes of Voyager in ten years or so. That was one of them, and I turned it off when that scene was over.

Voyager is filled with poor actors. Robert Beltran isn't the only one. They couldn't build arcs for these characters for a reason. The acting.

This premise never tests Kathy's decision. The weight of staying is the same as Chakotay or Paris.

Find some catnip. Some real, amazing Discoveries that Janeway is tempted to explore. Have her decisions culminate in her contemplating them staying, or perhaps they lose the ability to get home, because of her decision, something happens to the ship.

Do Crimson Tide on Voyager, a mutiny resulting in jettisoning part of the crew on a planet, as penance for trying to take command of Voyager.

Take this decision for a spin. Janeway loses Chakotay to forming a colony in the Delta Quadrant. Beltran is just sitting there, anyway. Have them recruit non-Starfleet officers, from the Delta Quadrant, to fill vacancies. Blow the ship to have tpieces,and have it assimilated by the Borg or Kazon, procure another vessel. It worked in IV. Use that vessel until Starfleet sends them one on the slipstream.

This show had a dark premise. Darker than DS9, and it was ruined by actors not committed to the part, by writers that were timid, and half-baked fits and starts.

It was unmemorable. Where it went wrong was the lack of danger being 75,000 light years from home.
 
However, I believe that the network had a knee jerk reaction that negatively affected Voyager. You put forward franchise fatigue as better explanation for Voyager's problems. What factors contributed to the notion that Star Trek was never going to offer something new to science fiction fans or the audience in general?

This.

The concept or idea of "franchise fatigue" has always confused me, because I think the entire idea of people becoming fatigued by a franchise falls squarely back on those who are in charge of creating the franchise in question. Why has it become 'fatigued'? What does one do to change the notion that a concept or idea has become worn out?
 
Beltran is just sitting there, anyway
Which is strange given the writers wrote several intriguing Chakotay centric episodes each season.

Beyond that almost every episode was filled with brilliantly written dialog that enabled Chakotay to be in turn emotionally complex, intellectually wise, and occasionally psychological tormented.

Always Chakotay was shown to be Janeway's trusted confident, the person Janeway could turn too.

Except none of that happen, because the writers couldn't figure out how to write stories for a ensemble cast.
"franchise fatigue"
More "creative fatigue."
 
Even after they left 'Kazon space' or whatever that meant, aliens that Voyager stumbled across still acted like they knew what Janeway was talking about. Real world explanation: The writers just stopped caring about it. By that time the writing had gotten so episodic that it was like watching TNG all over again.

Yeah, I always noticed that too. It would seem like the alien would say, "the Federation? We never heard of them. There are 16 star systems in this area, and we never heard of you" etc.

I always thought, somewhere down the road, they should have had one big emotional debate about who's right-the Maquis or the Federation. It didn't have to go any further or get really serious, but it would have been interesting to see. Instead the Maquis seem to strangely disappear into the crew.

The background crew never seemed real to me. I never got the sense of a large crew of people with personalities, who wanted to get home as soon as possible. They just looked like background people that hardly ever said anything and just moved in the background, like window dressing.

Voyager had some great ideas and episodes, but there was always something about it that didn't completely click.
 
When Rick Berman talked about "Franchise Fatigue," I believe he was talking after the cancellation of Enterprise, and in regards to that show, as opposed to Voyager.

While people may object to the term, there is such a thing as "Oversaturation," as well as "diminishing returns," both creatively and financially. George Lucas understood this when he scrapped the idea of having 12 consecutive star wars serial movies every other year, and instead decided on 3, then wait a generation for 3 more, while doing lots of smaller projects to keep the brand alive in between.
 
Some franchises take longer to "saturate" than others, for example, we got 8, Harry Potter movies, which means that at least number seven was well received.
 
Voyager had some great ideas and episodes, but there was always something about it that didn't completely click.
All the shows had NPC's walking about, but your point stands.

While people may object to the term, there is such a thing as "Oversaturation," as well as "diminishing returns," both creatively and financially.
I've never believed there was "oversaturation" with Trek, when did the fans ever insist that there was too much Trek on the air? We seem to nicely handle two series at the same time, when that was the case.

The problem was creativity, at some point (probably prior to the development of ENT) the entire team right to the top level producers should have been thanked for their previous efforts and shown to the door.
 
Or maybe oversaturation of old ideas. Time travel, forehead aliens, the Borg, The Q, Voyager went overboard with it. At that point, all the fascination was gone.

I think fans would have watched Enterprise, it did try to look and sound different, but it was too late. Same thing with the TNG Movies-- they seemed like little more than TV episodes, they were too stuck on the old TV format thing.
 
All the shows had NPC's walking about, but your point stands.

I've never believed there was "oversaturation" with Trek, when did the fans ever insist that there was too much Trek on the air? We seem to nicely handle two series at the same time, when that was the case.

The problem was creativity, at some point (probably prior to the development of ENT) the entire team right to the top level producers should have been thanked for their previous efforts and shown to the door.
During Enterprise, there was an oversaturation of sci fi-in-space shows. The market for such shows was very small to begin with. The fans will watch no matter what, but they aren't enough.


Or maybe oversaturation of old ideas. Time travel, forehead aliens, the Borg, The Q, Voyager went overboard with it. At that point, all the fascination was gone.

I think fans would have watched Enterprise, it did try to look and sound different, but it was too late. Same thing with the TNG Movies-- they seemed like little more than TV episodes, they were too stuck on the old TV format thing.
It's a mistake to assume that diminishing returns = diminishing quality.

And FWIW, First Contact was the most successful Star Trek movie, both financially, and critically, prior to JJ Abrams' "Star Trek."
.
 
I've never believed there was "oversaturation" with Trek, when did the fans ever insist that there was too much Trek on the air? We seem to nicely handle two series at the same time, when that was the case.

The problem was creativity, at some point (probably prior to the development of ENT) the entire team right to the top level producers should have been thanked for their previous efforts and shown to the door.

That's very true. Berman didn't want to rush to another series after Voyager, but Paramount insisted. Still, they kept him and Braga in charge of it all.
 
Or maybe oversaturation of old ideas. Time travel, forehead aliens, the Borg, The Q, Voyager went overboard with it. At that point, all the fascination was gone.

I think fans would have watched Enterprise, it did try to look and sound different, but it was too late. Same thing with the TNG Movies-- they seemed like little more than TV episodes, they were too stuck on the old TV format thing.

This. Drive home the danger 75,000 light years from home. Make Kathy a leader through difficult times. Kirk lost his friend and then his ship, Picard was kidnapped, Sisko ruminated about his dead wife, the losses in the war he created. There is nothing wrong with showing her damage over saving the Ocampa. Instead, it was the merriest ride home I have ever seen.

Enterprise is another ball of wax. The contempt for the Vulcans (which is in no way connected to the previous series' interpretations of them), the lack of danger in these new technologies, the bland characters on a ship bound to make history, is unforgivable. Enterprise was just another day in the park. It would have been nice to scale-back the look of Enterprise. I have nothing nice to say of the reboots, but if Abrams had designed that ship, if the use of handhelds and angles of the camera work had made Enterprise feel primal, basic, it would've not just felt fresh, but added to the danger of being in this universe for the first time.

I would've started the series on the first day of Enterprise's construction. I would've jumped through 32 years of construction in the first two episodes. I would've made Henry Archer the star of the pilot. Shot more scenes with Cochrane. I would show their "reasons," and what the Vulcans kept from Earth. And launch the ship at the end of the pilot.

Earn every scratch on that Hull, every phaser hit. Every time we stare down an enemy, Henry Archer and Zephrame Cochrane play in our minds. Especially, in the first season.

Instead of Bones' dialogue about matter compressed into a data stream, I'd tell the story of how the Enterprise incorporated the technology, and flashbacks to its first tests, conceptions. I'd earn the Communicators, the phasers, all those technologies we take for granted in the 23rd and 24th centuries. This, as a universe, means studying how those technologies are used in later shows. And building a narrative that not only does it for the first time, but is dramatic, and memorable enough to play in our heads, as Kirk fires phasers or uses a communicator. A true prequel that informs every series.

I would do the same for relationships among species. I'd see the beginnings of First Contact policies, of the Prime Directive, of the formation of the Federation.

These are the trailblazers that launch every series after it. With stories, not of charting new worlds, but informing all those journeys we have already seen.

And, if Berman wants out of the chair, let him. Don't fatigue us. Don't create a new Dominion of Xindi. Don't insult the audiences with conceptions we can see, in your narrative (Hoshi and Sluggo, for instance). Build an arc where Sluggo is her pet, for three episodes, and then releases him. Keep the mirror in-place, and don't bend that arc to one episode. Bend that arc over a season, let Sluggo get there before Hoshi.

They had the best concept of a show and burned through it with tropes and nonsense. It deserved to be canceled.

But, for Voyager, remember the danger. It was its greatest strength. In the annals of storytelling, more "The Fugitive," than "Lost in Space."
 
I've often wondered why they never did DS9, Voyager or Ent movies. I understand that Ent was canceled due to low ratings though but that still leaves DS9 and Voyager. For DS9 it could be, for example, Sisko returns from the Prophets and rallies up the old team because of a Prophet/Bajoran/Wormhole/Founders related problem!

For Voyager pretty much the same except it would be a problem related to the Delta Quadrant for example or Barclay...
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top