Where did Spock go?

[Luther Sloan]

Luther Sloan, exactly how did you decide those were alternate timelines? They look totally random to me.

Or is what the point?

KD:

Sorry for not going into more detail. I should have given a reason for the changes in the time lines.

Here are my time lines again but with explanations...

_____________________________________________________

Core Star Trek Time Lines:

Time Line A:
(Prime Time l)

The Original Series Season's 1-3 - And it's 6 Films.
The Next Generation Season's 1-7 - And Generations
Deep Space Nine Season's 1-4
Deep Space Nine Season 5: "Apocalypse Rising" to "Blaze of Glory"
Voyager Season's 1-2
Voyager Season 3: "Basics Part ll" to "Distant Origin"

The Original Prime Time Line:

The first Prime Time Line (to our knowledge) that was not influenced by time in a major or noticeable way.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Line B:
(Prime Time ll: Nearly Identical But Slightly Different)

First Contact
Deep Space Nine Season 5: "Empok Nor" to "Call to Arms"
Deep Space Nine Season's 6-7
Voyager Season 3: "Displaced" to "Scorpion Part l"
Voyager Season's 4-7
Insurrection
Nemesis

A slight change in the Prime Time Line
(or a Nearly Identical Prime Time Line):

In First Contact the film: we see Picard reveal future life details and technology to two very important individuals within history (i.e. Lily and Cochrane). Such an occurrence would have logically influenced the Federation and Starfleet into becoming more advanced technologically. However, (despite a few minor little alterations or nitpicks and knowledge of the Borg's attack on Earth in the past) when Picard and crew returned back to their own time, there was no noticeable or major changes to the time line. This means that this is either a fixed (or altered) time line that Picard returned to or a nearly identical separate time line.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Line C:
(Separate Alternate Time Line)

Star Trek (2009)

A New Separate Diverging Time Line
(That co-exists with the Prime Time Line(s)):

Spock (from the 2nd Prime Time Line): creates a singularity in attempt to save his home planet. As a result: he gets dragged into the singularity and thrown into a separate alternate time line in the 23rd Century.




_____________________________________________________

Unexplained Star Trek Time Lines:

Time Line D:
(Unexplained First Contact / Temporal Cold War Time Line)

Enterprise Season's 1-4

An Unexplained Alternate Time Line:

On Enterprise: We see a time line that acknowledges the new changed events in First Contact. Also, in addition: the time stream gets altered even more with the event known as the Temporal Cold War, as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Line E:
(Unexplained TOS time line)

The Animated Series Season's 1-2


An Unexplained Alternate Time Line:

In the Animated Series: We see events in a very different light than the way we see them in the Original Series. Characters, places, and things are a lot more alien than what we have come to know within TOS.



_____________________________________________________


Side Note l:

Further explanation on First Contact...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4037531&postcount=173

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4039307&postcount=175


Side Note ll:

If you or anyone else is interested, you can check out my full viewing order of Star Trek in my following post...

http://trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=4064142&postcount=4


Thank you.

 

[Dukhat]

Warped old friend, I hate to do this to you, but...
the Spock of the movie is the Spock of TOS. Because that's what the writers intended.

Fact.

By the same token, the Spock of TOS is not the Spock of the movie. Just because Nimoy happened to be the actor playing him doesn't make the 2009 film any more authoritative with regard to the events and characters of TOS than the series Enterprise was. TOS was a complete work in 1969. That has not changed.
Abrams and Nimoy really have nothing to say about it.

Opinion.

 

[Warped9]

They can intend all they want. Their final product speaks volumes otherwise.

 

[Vonstadt]

Warped old friend, I hate to do this to you, but...
the Spock of the movie is the Spock of TOS. Because that's what the writers intended.

By the same token, the Spock of TOS is not the Spock of the movie. Just because Nimoy happened to be the actor playing him doesn't make the 2009 film any more authoritative with regard to the events and characters of TOS than the series Enterprise was. TOS was a complete work in 1969. That has not changed.
Abrams and Nimoy really have nothing to say about it.

Though I enjoyed the film, i have to admit I share Warped and Beaker's assestment of the Spock issue.

And Yes I read all through the thread. I have yet to read a statement other than that is what the writer's intented. As the old saying goes...the road to hell...etc.

If you do not produce your intented effect, you have not done so. Basically the writer's were lazy and made a rather shoddy attempt to connect the dots between TOS and ST09. *shrugs*

I don't think anyone is arguing their intent...just the results.

I remember being a little stunned at Spock's "you are not the captian?" line given the year of the film and the appearance of Pine Kirk's age.

Leaving an audience to explain away an error is just lazy writing. *shrugs*

It is what it is. I acknowledge that their intent was it was to be TOS's Spock. They missed their intented mark as far as I am concerned. That isnt Warped's fault...nor Duhkat's nor anyone else's here in this thread...just the writers.

Here is to hoping for a degree of tighter writing in the sequel is all. They have rather large shoes to fill now that they are off to a clean start.

Vons

 

[F. King Daniel]

Thanks for the info, Luther Sloan. I see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusions


Since it's been asked for by Warped9, Vonstadt and others, here's some trivial "proof" that Spock Prime is the Spock from TOS:

His working with the Romulans (seemingly in the open now) is a continuation of his work in TNG "Unification", and the improved Federation/Romulan relations at the end of "Nemesis".

He repeated the line "I have been and always shall be your friend" from Wrath of Khan.

"Something I learned from an old friend" is reference to the repeated time-travels during TOS and the TOS movies.

His knowledge of Transwarp Beaming suggests he knew the ressurected Scotty from TNG "Relics". It's likely Scotty finally perfected his Transwarp beaming formula after his return owing to the obvious fact it was never used during TOS or TNG.

Of course you'll all say "similar things happend to an alternate Old Spock". Same goes for every episode of Star Trek ever made.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Oh yeah, and he said something to the effect of "captain's can't cheat death", a reference to Kirk's demise in Generations.

Honestly, someone, using the same shaky and vague criteria being used against STXI, prove that every TOS episode is in the same universe.

You can't.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I don't believe the Abramsverse has to have shared anything with what came before. It can be as different as they need it to be. Remember, a universe is not the same as a timeline; a universe is a distinct, physical location. A timeline, OTOH, is more like an idea. You don't create a universe, but you can create a timeline.

Nero and Spock simply travelled into another universe. That's how I see it.

 

[TOS Purist]

TOS [...] will never, ever be consistant with itself, let alone it's sequels and prequels.

Now that's just a false statement and I'm a little tired of hearing it everywhere. Out of all the other cheesy spin-offs that followed, TOS kept itself the most internally-consistent. And besides, if a sequel/prequel makes minor errors that are easily overlooked, that's one thing. But blatant, glaring, easily-avoidable inconsistencies are another thing entirely.

So I think TOS is the real and best Star Trek. Hello? It's THE ORIGINAL SERIES. It can't help but be real Star Trek because it established everything. And if I use it as the baseline by which I assess anything that follows then what's wrong with that? What unwritten law have I broken?

Holy shit my man, you have no idea how gratifying it is for me to read that. It's incredible for me to see, because I'm usually the only one saying that, so to see someone else post that is very affirming and encouraging indeed. Just FYI.

 

[A beaker full of death]

By the same token, the Spock of TOS is not the Spock of the movie. Just because Nimoy happened to be the actor playing him doesn't make the 2009 film any more authoritative with regard to the events and characters of TOS than the series Enterprise was. TOS was a complete work in 1969. That has not changed.
Abrams and Nimoy really have nothing to say about it.

Opinion.

Might want to consult the OED on that one. You're confused.

 

[Warped9]

Thanks for the info, Luther Sloan. I see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusions


Since it's been asked for by Warped9, Vonstadt and others, here's some trivial "proof" that Spock Prime is the Spock from TOS:

His working with the Romulans (seemingly in the open now) is a continuation of his work in TNG "Unification", and the improved Federation/Romulan relations at the end of "Nemesis".

He repeated the line "I have been and always shall be your friend" from Wrath of Khan.

"Something I learned from an old friend" is reference to the repeated time-travels during TOS and the TOS movies.

His knowledge of Transwarp Beaming suggests he knew the ressurected Scotty from TNG "Relics". It's likely Scotty finally perfected his Transwarp beaming formula after his return owing to the obvious fact it was never used during TOS or TNG.

Of course you'll all say "similar things happend to an alternate Old Spock". Same goes for every episode of Star Trek ever made.

Well I did want to keep this subject on point between TOS and ST09, but if you insist. Anyone who is familiar with my opinions over the years around here likely know that I don't consider the '80s films and TNG part of the same continuity as TOS either.

For a host of reasons.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Thanks for the info, Luther Sloan. I see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusions

KD:

It's the basic "Cause and Effect" theory within Temporal Mechanics. If I do "Action A" it will result in "Option B". If I go back in time and tell an important person within history of the future he is going to have and the impact that he has made along with other future advancements: do you think there wouldn't be a change (when I got back to my own time)?

Well, to assume that there wouldn't be a change when you got back would be ludicrous. That important person in history will forever be changed by my influence (if that person believed I was from the future). Essentially, that person's whole perception would change because of it. The person would make different choices or decisions as a result. Thus changing history. And it would be a noticeable change because you influenced someone who was already important within Earth's history.

Since it's been asked for by Warped9, Vonstadt and others, here's some trivial "proof" that Spock Prime is the Spock from TOS:

His working with the Romulans (seemingly in the open now) is a continuation of his work in TNG "Unification", and the improved Federation/Romulan relations at the end of "Nemesis".

He repeated the line "I have been and always shall be your friend" from Wrath of Khan.

"Something I learned from an old friend" is reference to the repeated time-travels during TOS and the TOS movies.

His knowledge of Transwarp Beaming suggests he knew the ressurected Scotty from TNG "Relics". It's likely Scotty finally perfected his Transwarp beaming formula after his return owing to the obvious fact it was never used during TOS or TNG.

There are realities that are not just similar, but almost identical to one another (Please read below).

Of course you'll all say "similar things happend to an alternate Old Spock". Same goes for every episode of Star Trek ever made.

Data says in TNG's "Parallels" that there are infinite number of possible outcomes in other parallel universes. This suggests that there are other parallel realities (or time lines) that almost identical or almost indistinguishable to one another (not just similar).

_____________________________________________________

DATA
I believe the quantum fissure we
discovered is a fixed point across
the space-time continuum -- a
"keyhole" that intersects many
different quantum realities.

TROI
What do you mean by "quantum
realities"?

DATA
For any event, there is an
infinite number of possible
outcomes. Our choices determine
which outcome will follow. But
there is a theory in quantum
physics that all possibilities
that could happen do happen in
alternate quantum realities.

For instance, in a different
quantum reality, Captain Riker may
have chosen to sit at the other
end of the table. While in
another reality, the Captain may
be standing.

BEVERLY

So at this moment, there are an
infinite number of Enterprises...
and an infinite number of Doctor
Crushers having this discussion.

DATA
Yes. Although on some of those
Enterprises, there may not be a
Doctor Crusher...

WORF
And somehow I have been shifting
from one reality to another...

DATA
That is correct.

​

____________________________________________________

In addition: TOS's "Metamorphosis" shows a young Cochrane who doesn't seem to think it is coincidence that he runs into another crew from a starship named "Enterprise", either. This suggests that we are looking at a time line that has not altered by the events of we see in the film First Contact yet.

However, as a result of the movie First Contact: We see a small handful of clear examples that the time travel event within the film has effected the time stream now (VOY's Year of Hell, VOY's Relativity, ENT's Regeneration). This would suggest that things have indeed changed within the time line.

Furthermore, lets say you believe that the time travel incident in First Contact was the original time line that was meant to be there all along. Well, the scene where we see a Borg like Earth when the Enterprise was following the Borg sphere back in time suggests that time lines can be briefly created and then changed in an instant. So the theory that a temporal incursion was always there to begin with is not really make all that much sense.

As for Time Lines D and E (Enterprise and TAS): Well, those are pretty self evident that they are not even remotely similar to the Prime Time Line (Versions l or ll).

 

[TOS Purist]

I don't consider the '80s films and TNG part of the same continuity as TOS either.

For a host of reasons.

AMEN!!!

But the point is, if you're going to argue with a TOS purist, you might as well only reference the material s/he considers canon (TOS) and forget referencing material that s/he considers irrelevant (non-TOS entities, haha).

 

[Vonstadt]

His knowledge of Transwarp Beaming suggests he knew the ressurected Scotty from TNG "Relics". It's likely Scotty finally perfected his Transwarp beaming formula after his return owing to the obvious fact it was never used during TOS or TNG.

That KD is a rather clever interpetation of that line. It is one that didn't occur to me having almost forgotten the episode 'Relics'.

I kinda like that tie in.

Of course you'll all say "similar things happend to an alternate Old Spock". Same goes for every episode of Star Trek ever made.

As Luther equally clever, covered that bit, I actually was only going to write my above observation. I do not fully agree with you KD but I do like the above tie in.

Vons

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

BEVERLY

So at this moment, there are an
infinite number of Enterprises...
and an infinite number of Doctor
Crushers having this discussion.



​

A greater tragedy than whether or not Spock Prime is TOS Spock. Oh those poor, poor sons of bitches on those infinite number of Enterprises having to deal with an infinite number of Crushers...the horror.

 

[Shazam!]

I dunno, I'd quite like an infinite number of Doctor Crushers.

 

[Shazam!]

A director du jour and a couple of hack writers do not a good Star Trek make. They messed it up huge and so too damned bad. It makes Enterfake look like genius.

Thinking that the movie has TOS elements and thinking that the movie is good are not mutually exclusive ideas.

 

[Ronald Held]

How Cochrane behaved to the Landing Party of the 1701 Enterprise is not necessarily an indication of a timeline problem. Between the year between FC and Metamorphosis, he did seem to clean up his act(if you believe what history wrote about him and that first ST:Enterprise Episode) and with many years of interfacing with the Companion, there is no telling what it did to some of his memories and personality.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Thanks for the info, Luther Sloan. I see where you're coming from, but I'm afraid I don't agree with your conclusions

KD:

It's the basic "Cause and Effect" theory within Temporal Mechanics. If I do "Action A" it will result in "Option B". If I go back in time and tell an important person within history of the future he is going to have and the impact that he has made along with other future advancements: do you think there wouldn't be a change (when I got back to my own time)?

Well, to assume that there wouldn't be a change when you got back would be ludicrous. That important person in history will forever be changed by my influence (if that person believed I was from the future). Essentially, that person's whole perception would change because of it. The person would make different choices or decisions as a result. Thus changing history. And it would be a noticeable change because you influenced someone who was already important within Earth's history.

Since it's been asked for by Warped9, Vonstadt and others, here's some trivial "proof" that Spock Prime is the Spock from TOS:

His working with the Romulans (seemingly in the open now) is a continuation of his work in TNG "Unification", and the improved Federation/Romulan relations at the end of "Nemesis".

He repeated the line "I have been and always shall be your friend" from Wrath of Khan.

"Something I learned from an old friend" is reference to the repeated time-travels during TOS and the TOS movies.

His knowledge of Transwarp Beaming suggests he knew the ressurected Scotty from TNG "Relics". It's likely Scotty finally perfected his Transwarp beaming formula after his return owing to the obvious fact it was never used during TOS or TNG.

There are realities that are not just similar, but almost identical to one another (Please read below).

Of course you'll all say "similar things happend to an alternate Old Spock". Same goes for every episode of Star Trek ever made.

Data says in TNG's "Parallels" that there are infinite number of possible outcomes in other parallel universes. This suggests that there are other parallel realities (or time lines) that almost identical or almost indistinguishable to one another (not just similar).

_____________________________________________________

DATA
I believe the quantum fissure we
discovered is a fixed point across
the space-time continuum -- a
"keyhole" that intersects many
different quantum realities.​

TROI
What do you mean by "quantum
realities"?​

DATA
For any event, there is an
infinite number of possible
outcomes. Our choices determine
which outcome will follow. But
there is a theory in quantum
physics that all possibilities
that could happen do happen in
alternate quantum realities.

For instance, in a different
quantum reality, Captain Riker may
have chosen to sit at the other
end of the table. While in
another reality, the Captain may
be standing.​

BEVERLY

So at this moment, there are an
infinite number of Enterprises...
and an infinite number of Doctor
Crushers having this discussion.​

DATA
Yes. Although on some of those
Enterprises, there may not be a
Doctor Crusher...​

WORF
And somehow I have been shifting
from one reality to another...​

DATA
That is correct.​

____________________________________________________

In addition: TOS's "Metamorphosis" shows a young Cochrane who doesn't seem to think it is coincidence that he runs into another crew from a starship named "Enterprise", either. This suggests that we are looking at a time line that has not altered by the events of we see in the film First Contact yet.

However, as a result of the movie First Contact: We see a small handful of clear examples that the time travel event within the film has effected the time stream now (VOY's Year of Hell, VOY's Relativity, ENT's Regeneration). This would suggest that things have indeed changed within the time line.

Furthermore, lets say you believe that the time travel incident in First Contact was the original time line that was meant to be there all along. Well, the scene where we see a Borg like Earth when the Enterprise was following the Borg sphere back in time suggests that time lines can be briefly created and then changed in an instant. So the theory that a temporal incursion was always there to begin with is not really make all that much sense.

As for Time Lines D and E (Enterprise and TAS): Well, those are pretty self evident that they are not even remotely similar to the Prime Time Line (Versions l or ll).

You're interpreting everything after First Contact and the others as changed timelines when the intent is that they were predestination paradoxes. There obviously had to be an original timeline prior to the various loops beginning, but IMO we never saw it. We've had proof that the Enterprise timeline was changed by at least two big events ("Shockwave" and the Xindi attack), but the way I see it nowadays, TOS, TNG and the rest are all the result of this tampering.

Don't get me wrong, you can believe what you want and there is loads of evidence to support your claims. Owing to the way the multiverse theory works you could argue an episode takes place in an alternate universe where the only difference is that Uhura applied her socks left-first instead of right-first today. Where do you draw the line between continuity errors and alternate universes?

I just take a more relaxed view of continuity gaffs, broken reverse-continuity and the rest.

 

[Dukhat]

By the same token, the Spock of TOS is not the Spock of the movie. Just because Nimoy happened to be the actor playing him doesn't make the 2009 film any more authoritative with regard to the events and characters of TOS than the series Enterprise was. TOS was a complete work in 1969. That has not changed.
Abrams and Nimoy really have nothing to say about it.

Opinion.

Might want to consult the OED on that one. You're confused.

Confused how? What you wrote is your opinion, since it's not shared by the people who made the film. Being condescending by telling me to look the word up in the dictionary isn't going to change it's meaning.

 

[xortex]

I remember consistancy being a problem as far back as TNG but saying TOS is inconsistant with itself is irrelevant besides it wasn't. The new Star Trek movie was an FU to fans and departure from consistancy and that's fine with me but call a spade a spade. It's a rip off rebooted remake.