Poll Where did Linnis gestate Andrew?

[φ of π]

In the episode Before and After Kes travels back through her timeline and we see a future that hasn't happened yet. In this Future, Kes and Tom have a daughter, Linnis, who goes on to have a son with Harry, Andrew. As was established in this episode and in the episode Elogium, Ocampa gestate their child in a sac on their backs, and humans... don't.

Where do you suppose half-Human/half-Ocampa Linnis carried her son Andrew before he was born?

 

[Tracy Trek]

Well, since both Linnis and Andrew seemed to be aging like an Ocampan (Andrew was supposed to be around 1 year old or less, but if he had been completely human he looked no older than 13 to me), then I think their physiology was mostly Ocampan as well. So I voted Ocampan style.

I think someone mentioned something like this in another thread, that all of these human/something else hybrids always retained the traits of the other species. Well, K'Eylar and B'Elanna may have looked a little less Klingon, but still seemed to have the internal physiology of a Klingon.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Here you go - my 2 cents are FREE:

Linnis may well have not given birth, at all. She was a nurse, herself, operating under the auspices of the EMH, who could bring all of the Federation's medical expertise to bare on this. I believe that Andrew was a test-tube baby who was gestated in a chamber of some kind. This was done so that Linnis might be able to retain her small waist size, and possibly due to Harry Kim's lethargic sperm ...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

She kept it in a box -- Life of Brian style.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The reproductive efforts of Linnis & Kim were a mixed bag, at best, judging by the results. I can't put my finger on it, but I sense something wrong with Andrew. He may be mentally challenged, in some way ... perhaps?

 

[fireproof78]

Alien-human hybrids seem to usually exhibit more of the alien traits, so I voted Ocampan.

 

[borgboy]

The reproductive efforts of Linnis & Kim were a mixed bag, at best, judging by the results. I can't put my finger on it, but I sense something wrong with Andrew. He may be mentally challenged, in some way ... perhaps?

Andrew was a lot younger than he looked, so it makes sense he was a little more childlike for his apparent age.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Yes ... you're probably right, borgboy. You know what, though? I suspect that he was voiced over by someone else, entirely. That isn't the kid's real voice. I'm almost definite on that. Look, it only matters because it's distracting. Whenever the kid's around, he's just awkward. It's bad enough Harry had to thirst for the liberty of Linnis, in the first instance, but that he had to marry and reproduce with her ... I know I'm not alone in this, so I won't rant. But I'm still convinced that she wouldn't have carried Andrew in her womb, or on her back, or whatever the balls happened, if she could've just let a machine do it, for her. There's every advantage to doing it, this way ...

 

[Tracy Trek]

Did you think the actor that play Andrew was older than his voice would seem to indicate? Is that what you meant? I thought the actor looked around 13. But the character did seem younger (that's not even taking into account that the character was 1/4 Ocampan and probably a year old or less).

And yeah, that was a weird situation with Harry being Tom's son-in-law. Although I had to laugh the first time I watched it and heard these lines:

Harry: So, how's it feel to be a grandfather?
Tom: A lot better than having you for a son-in-law.

But I think it was a bit of affectionate teasing on Tom's part. What do you think?

 

[2takesfrakes]

We witness the results AFTER the fact, when what we really want to know is: How did Harry end up as Tom's son-in-law?

Did Harry start hitting on Linnis? Did Linnis have a crush on Harry? Did Kes become aware of it, end up supporting it and then finding some way to slip it into the conversation with her Husband, one night? Did Harry have to come right out and ask Tom, "hey ... is Linnis seeing anyone? I mean ... is she available?" Or, did Tom, himself, make the match? "Kes, honey, what do you think? Harry and our daughter are both single, right? Let's get these kids together." Or are there more options ... and other possibilities?

But that's Science Fiction, you know? Outer Space Ways are not our ways. If it happens off of the Earth and there's an alien involved, well then, here's an opportunity to learn about other cultures and customs in the Galaxy. Resulting in stories that get told, at times, with too much exuberance, perhaps ... and not enough discernment.

 

[Tracy Trek]

On another Voyager message board I belonged to a long time ago, someone asked a joking question. Perhaps thinking about Harry and Linnis in the alternate timeline. They said, "Will Harry ever find the right woman". Someone else joked, "He just has to wait until Miral grows up". Just to be clear, I was not either of the people in that conversation.

 

[borgboy]

Oh, Harry and Linnis are a gross couple, absolutely. Harry was probably her godfather, he definitely watched her grow up. It's incredibly creepy and I never could look at Harry the same way after this.
It also makes me sad that Kes got so close to Andrew, and actually remembers giving birth to Linnis and yet they never existed. I'd think it would be kind of like a death to lose people to non existence like this. Of course, Voyager didn't have the freedom to really explore something like that with an episodic format.

 

[Tracy Trek]

I sometimes speculated that she remembered more of her alternate life than she let on.

 

[2takesfrakes]

The thing with Harry & Linnis is that, from the show's point of view ... it never happened. Alternate Realities and whatnot are the same thing as those shows where, at the end, "it was just a dream." And hell, if George Lucas could have Luke & Leia making out without Parent organisations lynching and nailing him to a tree, then surely, Harry & Linnis - who aren't even related - can get married and have a kid with no problem.

Had Harry noticed Linnis, as we saw her, and found her attractive and was deeply hurt and angry at himself for that, and had this sort of test his character, so to speak, as a result ... it may have just squeaked by as a story element. Forcing him to accept and acknowledge the true extent of his loneliness and to come to terms with it in a way that maybe helped him overcome it. But ... we got what we got, instead, to where we, as an audience, can wonder about things like, "how did Linnis give birth to Harry's son"?

But Harry's being married to Linnis had nothing to do with anything except to include him in the story. If Linnis was married to Ensign Johnny Smith, whom we've never met, then where's Harry in BEFORE & AFTER? Nowhere to be found. But they committed to telling the story this way, so in that sense, they forced their own hand. It doesn't make it the right decision, but it's what happened ...

 

[Tracy Trek]

But Harry's being married to Linnis had nothing to do with anything except to include him in the story.

I get the feeling that the writers didn't know what to do with Harry. Is that why it seems like there are so many negative comments about the character?

 

[Sophie74656]

Oh, Harry and Linnis are a gross couple, absolutely. Harry was probably her godfather, he definitely watched her grow up. It's incredibly creepy and I never could look at Harry the same way after this.
It also makes me sad that Kes got so close to Andrew, and actually remembers giving birth to Linnis and yet they never existed. I'd think it would be kind of like a death to lose people to non existence like this. Of course, Voyager didn't have the freedom to really explore something like that with an episodic format.

I always thought this same thing. He was probably "uncle" Harry for her her whole life so it always seemed an odd pairing to me. But I also always HATED the Tom and Kes pairing too

 

[fireproof78]

I get the feeling that the writers didn't know what to do with Harry. Is that why it seems like there are so many negative comments about the character?

Well, he never really feels like a character. The supposed interests that he has feel tacked on. The other furstration is he doesn't feel like he grows or changes as a character.

I always thought this same thing. He was probably "uncle" Harry for her her whole life so it always seemed an odd pairing to me. But I also always HATED the Tom and Kes pairing too

Why is that? I thought they were an interesting couple, and, if Kes had stuck around, there could have been some different dynamics in the crew.

As for Linnis and Harry, I do agree that it weirded me out when I saw the episode. I get the wanting a grandchild for Kes and showing the different stages of her life but that part just didn't work. Maybe it was a scene that could have involved her seeing her grandchild briefly before making another jump.

 

[φ of π]

Harry would have seen Linnis grow from a baby into an adult-shaped person in about a year or so, and then Linnis would have looked like any other adult female for about three years.

Maybe Linnis and Harry only got together when Linnis had her own Elogium, as she wanted a child and the family trusted Harry as practically one of their own anyway.

 

[borgboy]

Harry would have seen Linnis grow from a baby into an adult-shaped person in about a year or so, and then Linnis would have looked like any other adult female for about three years.

Maybe Linnis and Harry only got together when Linnis had her own Elogium, as she wanted a child and the family trusted Harry as practically one of their own anyway.

I can't imagine getting together with an adult that I watched grow up from infancy, even allowing for accelerated aging.
I liked Tom and Kes as a couple, but I also loved him with Torres. I thought the Doctor and Kes made a potentially cute couple. I loved the bond that had and how easily she accepted him as a person long before anyone else did.

 

[2takesfrakes]

I get the feeling that the writers didn't know what to do with Harry. Is that why it seems like there are so many negative comments about the character?

Watch Harry Kim in "The Disease" or in "Alter Ego" and you'll find your answers. Harry is lame. He's pathetic. He'll practically play pocketpool at his station, because he can't get a holo-character off his mind. Even where his job's concerned, as everyone's so fond of observing, he can't even get automatic promotions for time served. At least TNG's Reginald Barclay is cartoonish with his laundry list of mental deficiencies and shortcomings, so he's at least able to generate interest on that level. Whereas, Harry can only play the Youth Card and it doesn't cover the difference. And, again, however Harry was accepted "into the Family" by marrying Linnis, it still doesn't answer the uncomfortable question of how he got to her in the first place.

Most guys won't even hit on their friend's sister, OK? And here's Harry asking his best mate's kid out for romantic strolls on the holodeck and kissing her on the veranda. The least of the evils is that Linnis noticed Harry ... first. Her mum was then solicited upon to double team with her, pressuring Tom into - if not accepting her desire for Harry - to, at least, somehow tolerate it. But even this approach is a big, ugly bag of snakes that nothing could ever hope to straighten out. Because it would've demanded that Harry respectfully decline. Gently. Carefully. As painless a rejection as Humanly possible. But ... he apparently had different views.